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#261) 
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 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:35 pm 
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SickBeast wrote:
Hey BoFox, can you list "SickBeast's 7850" and slot it just above the GTX 580? :D

Hmm..... dream on!! LOL.. j/k! Well, a "SickBeast" 40% overclock would make it faster than GTX 580, but what about the bandwidth??

BTW, Apoppin, thanks for the awesome GTX 670 article! Although your article shows GTX 670 to be less than 10% slower than GTX 680, most other review articles showed just a tad bit over 10% (while some others still showed less than 10%), so the average was just a hair over 10% overall. In the future, games become more and more shader-bound, requiring GPU muscle to a greater degree, making the bandwidth ever-so-slightly less important.


Last edited by BoFox on Sun May 13, 2012 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.


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#262) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:44 am 
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Here's a commentary on Techreport's excellent video card evaluation article - pertinent to microstuttering on GTX 690 in 4 popular games compared against GTX 590 and HD 6990. It deserves a thread of its own, but I wanted to add it here to show at least some supporting evidence as to the reduced 7.5% penalty for GTX 690 compared against other multi-GPU cards that receive a 15% penalty against the overall benchmark ratings.

First, here's a link to the wonderful article, starting here:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/22922/3

In this chart, we see that for GTX 690, the line across the chart is practically as flat as for GTX 680 and GTX 670 (while being a little lower with less frame times):
Image

Now, let's compare this relatively flat line of the GTX 690 to the super-erratic of HD 6990 (while GTX 590's line is still pretty flat also but not quite as flat as GTX 670 below, or even the multi-GPU GTX 690 above):
Image

HD 6990 performs considerably worse here:
Image

Both GTX 590 and HD 6990 are at the bottom of the chart, with increased time spent below 50ms (likely for the badly "microstuttered/stuttered" frames during the demanding parts of the game):
Image


However, for Batman: AC, we see that GTX 690 does exhibit a line that's never as flat as the single-GPU cards:
Image
Above, the sharp spikes for the single-GPU cards are simply "stuttering" (or "hitching") rather than microstuttering. Microstuttering is constant, in that the line never gets to be flat (or really thin instead of "fat").

GTX 590's line below is only a bit worse than GTX 690, with more regular spikes:
Image
And we can see that HD 6990 once again has frame times all over the place, consistently.


For Battlefield 3, GTX 690 once again expresses a relatively "plump" line that tells us that microstuttering is not completely fixed, but not too bad either:
Image

GTX 590 shows spikes all over the place, while HD 6990 paints nearly half of the entire chart with its own color:
Image
Above, HD 6990 is basically equivalent to a GTX 670, since the bottom spikes are so low that they're almost irrelevant to the top alternating spikes (which is what we're basically seeing with their longer frame times- being on the screen for perhaps 3-4 times as long as the "quick" alternating frames that are so instant). One thing to note, though is that GTX 590 does stutter (, not constant microstutter) badly with super-high spikes quite frequently.

By the way, Techreport made a new kind of chart which is rather interesting (at around 50%, HD 6990 shows a sharp rise in the average frame time, which directly translates to microstuttering - 50% being quick, and 50% being slow):
Image

For the last game - Crysis 2, GTX 690's line is pretty flat, but not perfectly flat..
Image
Just draw a flat line across the middle of this lime-green line (not exactly middle of it, but maybe 10% higher than the middle of it) and this is pretty much where GTX 690 is at with the actual "feel" of the frame times, which is still only a bit more than half of the single-GPU cards:

Below, we see that microstuttering is quite profound for BOTH GTX 590 and HD 6990 cards:
Image
HD 6990's microstuttering makes it feel just like GTX 670 - with each alternating frame taking up most of the display time on the screen, the "median" line for HD 6990 is right about where the line for GTX 670 rests at. HD 6990 might have more than 25% higher fps than GTX 670, but the frame count is skewed in that HD 6990 does not really look any more fluid than GTX 670 across any TWO frames, one displaying after the other.

Again, we see a problem here:
Image

In every one of those games, HD 6990's line looked like as if it were the Richter Scale, we'd be experiencing a constant earthquake!

The GTX 690 review article explains it more, covering it in some detail with a chart zooming in to the first few frames for closer analysis:
Image
http://techreport.com/articles.x/22890/8

And here we can see that microstuttering is present for GTX 680 SLI, much worse than GTX 690:
Image

For more, on Crysis Warhead, see: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,88116 ... st/?page=3

And Serious Sam 3: http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/graf ... kroruckler
(where microstuttering still exists for GTX 680 SLI rather than GTX 690)


Nvidia's attempt at curing the microstuttering "defect" is a very welcome one, albeit a long-overdue one after nearly 8 years of supporting SLI technology. Hopefully AMD could also attend to this problem for once and for all.

At least GTX 690 did not show any serious microstuttering or stuttering problems above....


Last edited by BoFox on Sun May 13, 2012 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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#263) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:09 am 
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There are some really serious self-acknowledged issues with using Fraps to measure MS
Quote:
A further complication: we can't yet measure the impact of frame metering—or, really of any multi-GPU solution—with any precision. The tool we use to capture our performance data, Fraps, writes a timestamp for each frame at a relatively early point in the pipeline, when the game hands off a frame to the Direct3D software layer (T_ready in the diagram above). A huge portion of the work, both in software and on the GPU, happens after that point.

We're comfortable with using Fraps for single-GPU solutions because it captures frame times at a fixed point in what is essentially a feedback loop. When one frame is dispatched, the system continues through the process and moves on to the next, stopping at the same point in the loop each time to record a timestamp.

That feedback loop loses its integrity when two GPUs handle the work in alternating fashion, and things become particularly tricky with other potential delays in play. Fraps has no way of knowing when a buffer flip has happened at the other end of the pipeline, especially if there's a variable metering wait involved—so frame delivery could be much smoother in reality than it looks in our Fraps data. By the same token, multi-GPU schemes tend to have some additional latency built into them. With alternate frame rendering, for instance, a frame completed on the secondary GPU must be transferred to the primary GPU before it can be displayed. As a result, it's possible that the disparity between frame display times could be much worse than our Fraps data show, as well.

So, what to do if you're us, and you have a multi-GPU video card to review? The best we can say for our Fraps data is that we believe it's accurate for what it measures, the point when the game engine presents a frame to Direct3D, and that we believe the frames times it captures are at least loosely correlated to the actual display times at the other end of the pipeline. We can also say with confidence that any analysis of multi-GPU performance based solely on FPS averages is at least as wrong as what we're about to show you. We had hoped to have some new tools at our disposal for this article, including a high-speed camera we ordered, but the camera didn't arrive in time for this review, unfortunately. We will have to follow up with it at a later date. For now, we'll have to march ahead with some big, hairy caveats attached to all of our performance results. Please keep those caveats in mind as you read the following pages.


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#264) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:58 am 
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They really should have been able to solve microstutter by now. It should be 100% fixable in drivers.


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#265) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:07 pm 
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i was impressed with the lack of it on the GTX 690. Admittedly, i still haven't played a lot of games with it yet
- i am still benching the Sapphire 7770; i won't even have any time for CrossFire benches although i will set it up

i'm leaving on a jet plane ....


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#266) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:00 pm 
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apoppin wrote:
i was impressed with the lack of it on the GTX 690. Admittedly, i still haven't played a lot of games with it yet
- i am still benching the Sapphire 7770; i won't even have any time for CrossFire benches although i will set it up

i'm leaving on a jet plane ....

You're going to some kind of conference, right?

When do you get back?

Have you ever met Anand in person at one of these events?


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#267) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:14 pm 
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The GPU Technology Conference. Here is the schedule
https://registration.gputechconf.com/?form=schedule

It begins Monday afternoon and ends on Thursday evening. i fly back on Friday

i have seen Anand at events. We have never been introduced.


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#268) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:20 pm 
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apoppin wrote:
There are some really serious self-acknowledged issues with using Fraps to measure MS
Quote:
.... That feedback loop loses its integrity when two GPUs handle the work in alternating fashion, and things become particularly tricky with other potential delays in play. Fraps has no way of knowing when a buffer flip has happened at the other end of the pipeline, especially if there's a variable metering wait involved—so frame delivery could be much smoother in reality than it looks in our Fraps data. By the same token, multi-GPU schemes tend to have some additional latency built into them. With alternate frame rendering, for instance, a frame completed on the secondary GPU must be transferred to the primary GPU before it can be displayed. As a result, it's possible that the disparity between frame display times could be much worse than our Fraps data show, as well.

So, what to do if you're us, and you have a multi-GPU video card to review? The best we can say for our Fraps data is that we believe it's accurate for what it measures, the point when the game engine presents a frame to Direct3D, and that we believe the frames times it captures are at least loosely correlated to the actual display times at the other end of the pipeline. We can also say with confidence that any analysis of multi-GPU performance based solely on FPS averages is at least as wrong as what we're about to show you. We had hoped to have some new tools at our disposal for this article, including a high-speed camera we ordered, but the camera didn't arrive in time for this review, unfortunately. We will have to follow up with it at a later date. For now, we'll have to march ahead with some big, hairy caveats attached to all of our performance results. Please keep those caveats in mind as you read the following pages.

Yeah, I read that too, but the "bottom line" (redeeming feature) is bolded in red.
:tease:



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#269) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:22 pm 
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i "believe" also

Am i saved?
:grin:


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#270) 
 Post subject: Re: Updated List of Video Card GPU Voodoopower Ratings!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Hehe.. yeah, you're "saved" by the Devil, since the part was bolded in RED! Uh-oh...



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