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apoppin
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#61)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:40 pm |
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am Posts: 19668 Location: 404 - Not Found!
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SirPauly wrote: It appears that Lottes mentions that 2xTXAA performance hit is pretty close to a 4xAA MSAA performance hit, about 40% - which is what i found ... do your own results reflect this or are you seeing a disastrous framerate hit like Blackened/nvidiacookies is seeing? 
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SirPauly
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#62)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:48 pm |
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:56 pm Posts: 802
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Quote: How about some numbers: the majority of the cost associated with TXAA is just the cost of in-game MSAA. To put this in perspective for a game like Battlefield3 which has relatively optimized MSAA support for deferred rendering, on the **mid-range mobile** 650M at 1280x800 I measured a BF3 scene at 18ms/frame with no-AA. Simply turning on 2xMSAA adds 4.4 ms/frame, or using instead 4xMSAA adds 9.2 ms/frame. Other games with deferred rendering are much worse than BF3, and games with forward rendering are much better. The cost of TXAA over just MSAA on this GPU at the same resolution is 0.67 ms/frame for 2x, and 1.34 ms/frame for 4x. I think very small or modest hits to use TXAA over multi-sampling based on what TL is saying.
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apoppin
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#63)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:53 pm |
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am Posts: 19668 Location: 404 - Not Found!
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That is what i found. Blackened/nvcookies found a crippling performance hit.
What do you find with your GTX 670 at 1920x1080? How much of a framerate hit does your PC take when you turn on 2xTXAA over using no AA?
And what CPU are you using at what speed?
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SirPauly
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#64)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:24 pm |
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:56 pm Posts: 802
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I was using FXAA HQ -- and now use x2 TXAA over-all -- about 10-15 percent maybe from FXAA HQ. I core 7 920 -- modest OC.
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SirPauly
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#65)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 pm |
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:56 pm Posts: 802
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apoppin wrote: That is what i found. Blackened/nvcookies found a crippling performance hit. He may indeed have a problem but they don't certainly translate into all and to blanket a feature. Very happy to see Timothy Lottes join in the discussion -- with all the -- there is no super-sampled --it can't be compared nonsense -- this feature offers a non traditional or non conventional efficient super-sampled effect that helps improve noise factors. And all some desired to talk about and blanket about was the blur when in motion is the key to enhancing quality over-all to me.
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apoppin
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#66)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:53 pm |
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am Posts: 19668 Location: 404 - Not Found!
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Agreed. Blackend's issues are his own. He is quick to jump to negative conclusions when his own SLI appears broken in this game. The real test is how it looks in motion and i give a cautious thumbs up to TXAA - it improves the experience of playing tSW over using any other method of AA that is available (none is ugly and FXAA doesn't take care of shimmering) -- i wish i had more time to play it. Rushing to finish my FTW z77 MB eval and then i got a new card to open. 
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SirPauly
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#67)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:10 pm |
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:56 pm Posts: 802
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The bur is indeed noticeable and the feature may not be for everyone -- hopefully, as TXAA matures they can improve upon this considering many PC Gamers like clean and sharp! The title was littered with aliasing and quite frankly surprised how good it really looks in motion. But, for me, was curious how IHV's could create an efficient super-sampled effect to help improve the experience -- very innovative feature on the surface. This is another example of pro-active from nVidia.
I don't see this as a step backwards but a step forward because the hard work was trying to figure out how to bring a feature that helps curb temporal aliasing but yet efficient. The next step is to offer sharp flexibility, one may imagine.
Based on screen shots -- can easily see gamers saying, "WTF?"
Based on a moving screen? A thumbs up but not a mighty one based on the blur!
A lot of good here but certainly not an ideal feature -- certainly trade-offs to consider. The part that impresses me the most is the quality of anti-aliasing offered for the lack of performance hit.
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apoppin
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#68)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:25 pm |
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am Posts: 19668 Location: 404 - Not Found!
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SirPauly wrote: The bur is indeed noticeable and the feature may not be for everyone -- hopefully, as TXAA matures they can improve upon this considering many PC Gamers like clean and sharp! The title was littered with aliasing and quite frankly surprised how good it really looks in motion. Agreed. The shimmer was annoying and now it is gone. For this title, the 'cinematic look' works great but may not work so well with other titles. One thing i noticed is that text is still readable (compared to MLAA, for example). i believe that FXAA had its start in academia. There was a paper on temporal anti-aliasing published a couple of years back, i think. This is pretty quick progress and it's only the firs title. i am sure the algorithm can be improved and i'd like to see the ability to force it in the drivers.
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apoppin
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#69)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:52 am |
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am Posts: 19668 Location: 404 - Not Found!
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Another good post by TimothyLottes http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.ph ... tcount=244Quote: I'd like to help developers get the most out of MSAA with selective super-sampling, etc. The aim here would be that in-game you'd have the option to run with standard MSAA on, then crank up the super-sampling in various ways on a slider which ends at full RGSSAA (with a separate slider for LOD bias). Then for those who like the really sharp view, you just use the in game MSAA-to-RGSSAA with the slider, for those who want the film look, you just toggle on TXAA on top of that.
The real challenge here is getting critical mass so that the developer thinks things like selective super-sampling are important to users. That takes some work, because you need to sell it to the average joe too, who probably has a $100 video card. That average joe running with 1080p or soon retina resolution displays simply isn't going to have the perf at native resolution to super-sample on anything but a simple 2.5D game with no depth complexity or triangle density.
So part of my goal with TXAA was finding a way, like with DVDs or BluRays, that the output content could be up-sampled well so that these higher end techniques could be used on lower end cards if the gamer wanted to trade sharpness. Or alternatively on a GPU which isn't fast enough to enable 4xMSAA at native resolution and hit the 120 Hz you want for input latency in game, TXAA could be used with up-sampling, to get that 120 Hz frame rate .... by now you should realize that I'm a latency snob who doesn't care about sharpness, but hates temporal aliasing.
And one other option, which applies to those who like maximum sharpness with RGSSAA: if 4xRGSSAA has a 400% hit on frame rate, and 4xTXAA in an optimized title has say a 50% hit on frame rate, then in theory you'd be able to run the game with 4xTXAA at 2x the resolution (which would be an effective 300% hit on frame rate), and down-sample to have a performance win with TXAA compared to RGSSAA, and still get the sharpness you are looking for thanks to a new quality down-sampling (and I'm not referring to the relatively poor quality you currently get with the NVIDIA GPU-does-the-scaling driver hack).
Anyway there is a lot of things to do... Indeed there are! 
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SirPauly
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#70)
Post subject: Re: The Secret World - Updated with TXAA(!)  Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:46 am |
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:56 pm Posts: 802
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Man, do I have a lot of respect for Timothy Lottes after this quote and has been a hoot to garner some insight on how an important nVidia developer thinks. Quote: I'd like to help developers get the most out of MSAA with selective super-sampling, etc. The aim here would be that in-game you'd have the option to run with standard MSAA on, then crank up the super-sampling in various ways on a slider which ends at full RGSSAA (with a separate slider for LOD bias). Then for those who like the really sharp view, you just use the in game MSAA-to-RGSSAA with the slider, for those who want the film look, you just toggle on TXAA on top of that. The holy grail of enhancement flexibility.
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