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 Post subject: *ANY* P55 Overclockers beware! -many mobos are defective!!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:39 am 
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UPDATE: it is much worse than expected.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bud ... 36-15.html
============================================================

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3661

The problem affects *eXtreme* ANY (updated) P55 overclockers

Quote:
The overriding concern is that we have damaged every motherboard in our possession for the P55 overclocking (extreme) shootout as well as two very expensive i7/870 processors. These problems are the cause of a single component and are repeatable. As such, we thought we would provide details on current problems and will provide an update once all of the motherboard manufacturers affected have had a chance to properly respond.


it makes me glad i got an i7 :tease:



Quote:
We draw your attention to the fact that the processor shown in this pictures exhibits signs of insufficient pin-to-pad contact (little to no contact) in what is a rather reproducible pattern with Foxconn manufactured 1156 sockets. As soon as an end-user mounts a CPU in a socket and latches the clamp mechanism, each pin should leave a notable mark on the associated pad.

We've marked locations where this does not seem to have happened, showing what appears to be a significant reduction in the number of VCC/VSS pins for proper power delivery, and certainly not at the right load line resistance. Damage resulting from highly overclocked use in these types of situations is not solely limited to the processor; let’s take a look at what happened to some of the motherboards in which these CPU were seated.


Discussion:
Quote:
At first glance, one might be inclined to think LGA-1156 based processors are intolerant of high-end overclocking, almost as if by design. This is correct to some extent; a quick glance at Intel’s white papers for socket 1156 CPU’s reveals that there are around 175 pads for VCC compared to over 250 for socket 1366 CPU’s. This means socket 1156 has around 66% of the current capacity of socket 1366, the caveat being that when overclocked, processors from both platforms draw similar levels of current.

When overclocked above 4GHz, processors from both platforms will draw around 15-16 amps via the EPS 12V rail to VCC, VTT and some of the other sub –system power rails under full 8 thread load from the Intel burn test (Linx). Assuming 85% PWM efficiency, we’re looking at power draw in the region of 130-140w to VCC on both platforms. The facts point toward tighter current handling tolerances for socket 1156 when compared to socket 1366, especially when it comes to non-connection of VCC/VSS power delivery pins.

Fortunately, we think we've been able to isolate pin to pad contact issues to one particular brand of parts. Physical inspection and end-user reports all but confirm the issues only affects sockets manufactured by Foxconn at this time. The only known alternative sockets in the wild are made by LOTES or Tyco AMP. We happen to have a couple of boards from EVGA using the LOTES/Tyco AMP sockets and MSI/DFI using the LOTES socket design, and thus far those boards have been issue free given highly similar operating conditions. In fact, we’ve managed to push our LGA-1156 processors further in heavy load tests on boards made using LOTES/Tyco AMP sockets than those made with sockets from Foxconn; something we’re not putting down solely to coincidence.

So far, EVGA is the only company we know that uses sockets exclusively from LOTES on their top-tier P55 boards - for example, the EVGA P55 Classified 200, model E659. This by the way may be the onus behind the decision to market the board’s “300% More Gold Content” socket statement as a purchasing option point. If you find yourself shopping for an EVGA P55 FTW, model E657, you've got a 50/50 chance of buying one with a Tyco AMP socket design (using a LOTES backplate), as opposed to one made solely with Foxconn's, the same goes for MSI and DFI who have batches of boards in the retail channel using LOTES sockets (although we're not entirely sure on socket specifics at this point). DFI told us earlier they have dropped usage of the Foxconn sockets completely until further notice. We hear the LOTES and Tyco AMP sockets are in short supply, which is probably why Foxconn's been able to fill the void in the market with what we believe to be a lower quality alternative for the extreme overclocker.


solution:
Quote:
Note how from a variety of angles certain pads show no evidence of contact from a Foxconn pin at all. Both the Tyco AMP and LOTES sockets have a larger pin/pad contact surface area leaving a slight scuff mark in the central area of each pad. In light of this, what we will say is that if you’re thinking of doing extreme overclocking on a board built using Foxconn's socket 1156, think again. Or, at least check your CPU for evidence of proper pin-to-pad contact.

We have not had any problems with air or water cooling overclocking up to 4.3GHz, although we do have a i5/750 that has developed a few dark pads after a thousand hours or so of constant overclocking. However, none of the boards have developed pin problems so we feel very safe in saying that any problems will probably occur only in extreme overclocking scenarios.


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#2) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:51 am 
Don't you just love paying a premium for dodgy products.build quality?

Foxconn are barely any better at manufacturing than PC-Chips or MSI. I certainly would not purchase a motherboard from them. Most "reference style" nForce motherboards (especially those offered by companies not previously known for motherboards) were made by Foxconn and I think this is mainly where nForce picked up a bad reputation amongst certain users.

Ironically enough Leadtek is a Foxconn brand, but they have a fair amount of autonomy from Foxconn and their build quality is always brilliant. It was grimly amusing to watch Foxconn try to kill the Leadtek brand off, market the cards under their own name (with less quality control) and finally pull their brand out of the graphic card market.


  
 
#3) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:24 am 
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Holy f**k, what an Engineering f**k up.


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#4) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:30 pm 
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to be fair, it only affects (way) less than .1 tenth of 1% of their entire market. We are talking *extreme* overclocking - over 4.3GHz - mostly on watercooling - and WAY the hell beyond they are spec'ced for. If i am extremely lucky with my i7, i might get 4.0 GHz on air without dangerous overvoltage

To get that extra 350MHz, you now have to play with some pretty extreme voltage - something the contacts were never expected to have to take :think:


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 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:01 pm 
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apoppin wrote:
to be fair, it only affects (way) less than .1 tenth of 1% of their entire market. We are talking *extreme* overclocking - over 4.3GHz - mostly on watercooling - and WAY the hell beyond they are spec'ced for. If i am extremely lucky with my i7, i might get 4.0 GHz on air without dangerous overvoltage

To get that extra 350MHz, you now have to play with some pretty extreme voltage - something the contacts were never expected to have to take :think:


Something is wrong if you can exceed the ratings of anything on the board.

That's how fires start.


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#6) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:12 pm 
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dmcowen674 wrote:
apoppin wrote:
to be fair, it only affects (way) less than .1 tenth of 1% of their entire market. We are talking *extreme* overclocking - over 4.3GHz - mostly on watercooling - and WAY the hell beyond they are spec'ced for. If i am extremely lucky with my i7, i might get 4.0 GHz on air without dangerous overvoltage

To get that extra 350MHz, you now have to play with some pretty extreme voltage - something the contacts were never expected to have to take :think:


Something is wrong if you can exceed the ratings of anything on the board.

That's how fires start.

let me give you an analogy with an automobile

you can speed beyond the speed limit .. and then, beyond that, you can speed beyond what is safe .. and then you can speed so fast it is very dangerous and all of the auto is being strained to the limit, aerodynamically and mechanically

- Now on the next level, what they guys are doing is taking their automobile and flying low
:tease:

--- it is a warning to *them*
:doh:

for the rest of us including the moderate overclocker
:sleep:


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#7) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:12 pm 
apoppin wrote:
Quote:
to be fair, it only affects (way) less than .1 tenth of 1% of their entire market. We are talking *extreme* overclocking

No, the CPU socket (from Foxconn) is just plain outright faulty. I'll quote your anandtech quote.

Anandtech wrote:
Quote:
Note how from a variety of angles certain pads show no evidence of contact from a Foxconn pin at all. Both the Tyco AMP and LOTES sockets have a larger pin/pad contact surface area leaving a slight scuff mark in the central area of each pad. In light of this, what we will say is that if you’re thinking of doing extreme overclocking on a board built using Foxconn's socket 1156, think again. Or, at least check your CPU for evidence of proper pin-to-pad contact.


Based on that alone, I would not purchase a P55 motherboard with a Foxconn CPU socket on it AT ALL, regardless of whether I wanted to overclock or build a stock standard system.

In fact, Intel and Foxconn need to do the correct thing by consumers and recall/replace all motherboards with these sockets on them.


  
 
#8) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:44 pm 
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clearly the pins are making contact or the mobos wouldn't work at all :P

it is just that they are not making sufficient contact for an extreme overclock
:think:


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#9) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:03 am 
Not true, a lot of the pads/pins in a cpu socket nowadays are power and ground pins.

The CPU will still work without all being connected, but to do so it overloads other power and ground pads/pins.

This can lead to the CPU burning out, or unstable operation even at stock clocks.

Engineers put the pads/pins on the package for a specific reason, not because they felt like decorating the chip.

Just as aside, I believe that pins are a better consumer solution, because they offer more surface area (the length and diameter of the pin) for the socket to contact than a pad does (the top of the pin).


  
 
#10) 
 Post subject: Re: Extreme P55 Overclockers beware! -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:37 am 
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I wonder if this non pin/pad contact affects other sockets ,besides p55's.



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