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RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-15-2017
Quote:I can’t believe your government spends *more* than ours and you have way less social and government services.
This is what 'the right' in the US bitches about the most, and are frequently called uncaring greedy bastards who don't want to help the poor. Most of the people on 'the right' are capable of seeing the obvious- we waste obscene amounts of money at the federal level. 'The left' in the US pushes that any changes to how the money is spent is an attack by 'the rich' against 'the poor'.
I'd wager if you ask 'the right' to pay double their taxes for a couple of years for a 100% guaranteed way to reduce poverty in the US in half, you'd find a hell of a lot more support then the press would leave you to believe.
Quote:Where is the money going in the USA? A vacuum? Your government is burning it?
A few different areas are where most of the waste goes. As an anecdote of direct witnessing of one of the problems- I have three people that I am related to, none of whom I have spoken to for many years, haven't had jobs since they were teenagers, one is about to turn 50 and the other two are in their late 30s. Between them they have eight children, none of them have anything wrong with them whatsoever- and yet they have all been collecting disability benefits, housing assistance, food stamps and rent subsidies for decades. Beyond that, they also registered their children as 'disabled' and started collecting checks for them as well. To give proper framing, one of their children ended up in so much trouble I ended up with custody of her at the age of 13. She was failing everything in school and had been arrested for assaulting a police officer. She graduated with a 4.0 and now works in the oncology center we have in town. Absolutely nothing wrong with her, but her mother was collecting disability payments for her for three years *after* I had custody(I refused to take a penny of that money) before they finally caught on that she didn't even have custody of her(nor was there ever anything 'wrong' with her).
That is obviously anecdotal, but spending time around these people will show you there are a *lot* of them, and while their numbers may not be comparable to the actual poor, the amount of funding that goes to them is disproportionately high. In the article I linked earlier they were discussing how a single mother could get up to ~$40K worth of benefits with one child. That is for doing absolutely nothing. Rent and food paid for and a check from the government every month. These people, and there are *a lot* of them, are what the right calls 'welfare queens'. The people who play the system and milk it out, that contribute nothing to society. They are commonplace, and they are the type of people you hear Rollo bitch about the most.
Does he bitch because he hates to poor? Absolutely not. But if you witness these people for long enough it sickens you. So many people are trying to work hard to get themselves ahead- and these drains on society take so much funding from the system we aren't helping out the people that just need a boost up to take care of themselves as much as we should and could be, for less then we are spending now.
Another area is administrative costs. Because of the way we do things at the federal level, administration overhead runs close to 10% of the total budget. Now that may not sound like a lot, but when dealing with something on the scale of US social spending- the largest single revenue pot in the world, that is a *HUGE* chunk of money. It significantly exceeds what any private sector administration costs are, and it is an area 'the left' fights like a dog to protect. The employees are almost entirely union, heavily back the Democratic political machine and furiously fight against any attempts to increase efficiency.
For proper perspective, almost 3% of our entire GDP is given to administration costs for the poor. None of that actually goes to the poor- it goes to the people who are paid to 'help' them. Now, if our social services were a model of effectiveness, that may be reasonable. But as you have noted, the amount we spend for what we get is an absolute joke.
So, when you hear Rollo and I bitch about the government realize that while yes, we are to 'the right' of where the US government is at, in *NO WAY* does that mean we hate the poor. We have both been 'the poor', we want those that are doing everything they can to get out of poverty to get more help. I can't speak for Rollo on this one, but I don't care if the welfare queens freeze/starve to death.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-15-2017
Well, what I think Ben is that instead of pointing fingers at each other, the politicians on both sides of the aisle in the USA need to come up with a solution to this instead of blaming each other and engaging in partisan politics. They should use Canada as a model if they need to, we are clearly using our tax dollars far more effectively. The answer is not to elect a divisive guy like Trump who is only going to do things to favor the rich and big business. Perhaps there needs to be a full social system reform down there to shut down the "welfare queens" as you call them. If the system is designed properly with good checks and balances, it will make a big difference. You guys do a lot backwards down there though. I'm going to share a post one of my friends made on Facebook recently:
Quote:How to get a gun in Japan:
To get a gun in Japan, you first have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.
Japan had 11 gun deaths in 2008, the U.S. had 12,000.
Sometimes instead of blindly thinking that you live in the greatest country in the world, you need to look outward to see how other people do things. They just might be doing them better.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-15-2017
Quote:The answer is not to elect a divisive guy like Trump who is only going to do things to favor the rich and big business.
Trump just ended billions of dollars of kickbacks to insurance companies to subsidize people who make over $100K a year and was called an extremist. You aren't quite wrapping your head around the state of politics here. Obama is the one that pushed those through for the record. The left, on a policy basis, does what they can to benefit their big corporate donors while keeping people locked in poverty. It's how they secure the vote. Hillary outspent Trump by hundreds of millions of dollars in the last election cycle- big business is in absolute lock step with 'the left' in this country. You listen to partisan rhetoric. If you read the bills it is a very different picture.
In no way am I a Trump fan, not even close, but it doesn't matter what anyone tries to do here- Trump was called out for attacking the poor while ending subsidies for multi billion dollar corporations for those with six figure incomes. That is why I would never vote for the likes of Hillary Clinton.
Quote:Sometimes instead of blindly thinking that you live in the greatest country in the world
We are the richest and most powerful nation in the world, and it really isn't close. There are *TONS* of things we could do better, but some of them are likely in a very different direction then what you think they should be.
Quote:How to get a gun in Japan
I live in what I believe at this point is the most extreme right wing state for gun ownership in the US. You know what I have to do to legally carry a concealed 'assault rifle'? Be 21 years old. That's it. How does that work out?
http://nhpr.org/post/gun-crime-new-hampshire-well-below-national-average#stream/0
61 Murders with guns total over the course of *twelve years*. This is an area that matches Canada's diversity level, but with extremely high gun ownership and the most liberal(actual liberal, not totalitarian/leftist 'liberal') gun laws I'm aware of on Earth. If we take an average of 1.3 Million people(in the time frame we went from ~1.2 to 1.5) that gives us a gun murder rate of 0.39 per 100,000. Canada is 0.38- Finland clocks in with 0.32. For the record, our crime rate has actually markedly dropped here lately too, but if I quoted the most recent years only, we'd be close to the lowest on Earth and that's too small of a sampling.
Show me a country with *close* to our level of ethnic diversity with a lower crime rate. I can go state by state if you'd like, the states that look like Canada or Europe- don't have problems with gun ownership.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-16-2017
So Ben now you're going to try to convince me that Trump is a socialist and Obama was some kind of alt right hack? That's pretty rich.
Then again you sound like you're also pretty rich and likely disconnected with what the poor struggle with. You talk about the welfare queens but there are many other poor people in the USA who need all the help they can get, just so they can survive.
Then you say that the USA is the richest and most powerful country. Ok. If Canada had 300 million plus people living here we would probably come pretty close. On a per capita basis there are many places that are richer than the USA. Not only that but the last time I checked, the middle class here in Canada is doing much better than the middle class in the USA.
As for your gun logic, I just lost a lot of respect for the way you see things. The way things are done in Japan makes perfect sense. By your logic they might as well let everyone buy bazookas and grenades when they turn 21.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-16-2017
Quote:So Ben now you're going to try to convince me that Trump is a socialist and Obama was some kind of alt right hack? That's pretty rich.
/facepalm
You want to talk about the polarization in American politics? Seriously, it is that kind of idiocy that is causing it. I do not believe any of your claims to your achievements nor towards your claimed intellect- you are not exhibiting any ability to critically think whatsoever.
I stated a policy shift that was done by Trump to reverse something Obama had put in place. These are not based on some tribalistic idiocy like the KKK or DNC or GOP, it is based on actual policy changes enacted by two people.
You are exhibiting Neanderthal type group think by pigeon holing every person into conveniently defined litmus tests that they must pass. It is this kind of bigoted hatred that is ruining politics all over the world, and you have clearly shouted that you are very much a part of the problem.
The overwhelming majority of people are not idealistic zealots, only half witted sheep. Look at actual actions and judge people thustly, not on your idiotic bigoted biases.
Quote:You talk about the welfare queens but there are many other poor people in the USA who need all the help they can get, just so they can survive.
Again, your bigoted idiocy is talking. Pull your head out of your ass. You want to be taken seriously as someone possessing intelligence then act like it. To quote-
Quote:these drains on society take so much funding from the system we aren't helping out the people that just need a boost up to take care of themselves as much as we should and could be
Instead of dealing with what is actually said, you check it against some bigots checklist of stereotypes. Seriously, you come across as a juvenile half wit doing this shit. You claim to have a brain, start discussing what is actually said. Quote and respond. Don't imagine some other discussion- and don't check you 'political pigeon holing for idiots' book- pull you partisan head out of your echo chamber ass and actually discuss the issues.
Quote:Then you say that the USA is the richest and most powerful country.
That is a fact. You can not like it, you can hate it, you can love it. Doesn't change things. You can make the assertion that Canada would be too with the same population, your own claims heavily dispute that though. Your country would spend close to what we do on their military? For the record- I think we spend *WAY* too much on it, I know that you will ignore that because it doesn't fit in to your 'politics for dummies' talking points, but it is the truth.
Quote:Not only that but the last time I checked, the middle class here in Canada is doing much better than the middle class in the USA.
What metrics are you using? I know, that's going to require thought and some level of intellect to answer. Sorry, that was a low blow on my part.
Quote:As for your gun logic, I just lost a lot of respect for the way you see things.
How do I see things? Based on your follow up logic you don't understand shit.
Quote:By your logic they might as well let everyone buy bazookas and grenades when they turn 21.
/facepalm
Sooooo, soooo dumb. The assertion was made that lax gun laws lead to gun violence. The most lax gun laws in the first world, which is where I live, do not have a gun violence problem. Ergo- there must be other factors. I know, you don't profess to have a stats background, I do. I doubt you'll be able to actually have a critical thought on the subject but maybe other, *FAR* more intelligent people will read and respond.
Stop trying to pigeon hole people- that is exactly the type of behavior the neo nazis and KKK use.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-16-2017
Nice. I completely refute Ben's post using logic and in response he calls me a bunch of nasty names and gets really angry. I could have figured as much.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-16-2017
Uhm, you didn't respond to a single point.
You regurgitated the bombastic simpleton talking points you have been fed by feeble minded individuals.
You offered no critical analysis supporting your points.
You are simply pushing the polarization politics of the clinically stupid. Take a point, any actual point, apply critical thinking- I know you'll have to look that up- and explain your side of the point.
Let me give you a hint- assuming anyone is some litmus test of idealogical bigotry puts you in the sheep camp. Prove your way out of it.
Edit- Heh, just noticed the anger part. Let me give you a hint guy, you need to have something worth getting angry about for that to happen. Your post basically screams 'I'm a preprogrammed politard'. They are on both the left and the right. Take a point, critical analysis, draw a conclusion- present conclusion- wait for counterpoint.
You sit around waiting to scream 'he's left' 'he's right' like that has any vindication in the world. Anyone, *ANYONE* who thinks that way is a fucking retard. Plain and simple.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-17-2017
Ben, I’m sorry to tell you this but Donald Trump is about as far to the right as politicians get. That is a fact. You tried to paint him in a different light but I’m not buying it. I could care less what you think of me. I’m not buying your bullshit.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-17-2017
Quote:Ben, I’m sorry to tell you this but Donald Trump is about as far to the right as politicians get.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/politics/cpac-donald-trump-conservative/index.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/07/25/if-trump-conservative-right-needs-new-name-christian-schneider-column/506009001/
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448086/never-trump-conservatives-donald-trump-still-hasnt-won-them-over
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thomas-jefferson-street/articles/2017-06-14/conservatives-must-take-the-republican-party-back-from-donald-trump
http://time.com/4679396/cpac-donald-trump-conservatives/
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443236/donald-trump-conservatism-predicting-right-wings-future
And from the liberal's far left press-
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/08/the-conservatives-turning-against-donald-trump
And you have......?
Quote:That is a fact.
Have you even taken middle school level political science classes? I'm doubting it.
Quote:You tried to paint him in a different light but I’m not buying it.
I stated what he did-
http://www.latimes.com/la-na-pol-trump-obamacare-questions-20171013-htmlstory.html
Four times the poverty rate for a family of four works out to about $100K a year. You can 'not buy' whatever you want.
Quote:I could care less what you think of me.
What I care about is you not thinking at all.
Donald Trump is a populist. His politics don't fall under traditional 'left/right' categories. Any person with a hint of intellect and the capacity for individual thought sees this without issue. He was a Democrat until not that long ago, he panders to certain bases but has close to no conservative fundamentals- if he did- he'd be passing bills left and right. Conservatives have both the house and the Senate.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-18-2017
(10-17-2017, 04:11 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Ben, I’m sorry to tell you this but Donald Trump is about as far to the right as politicians get. That is a fact. You tried to paint him in a different light but I’m not buying it. I could care less what you think of me. I’m not buying your bullshit.
I don't even know if Trump can be considered "right wing politics". He seems more a rich guy bringing his reality tv act to the Whitehouse to me?
In any case, good luck arguing with Ben. You can't use vague FB meme style talking points to win with him, he's a lot smarter than that. If you really want to do this you're going to need to put in some research time and put forth either new or accepted theories and back them with documented facts.
He soaks up a LOT and seems to retain it.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-18-2017
(10-17-2017, 05:31 AM)BenSkywalker Wrote: Donald Trump is a populist. His politics don't fall under traditional 'left/right' categories. Any person with a hint of intellect and the capacity for individual thought sees this without issue. He was a Democrat until not that long ago, he panders to certain bases but has close to no conservative fundamentals- if he did- he'd be passing bills left and right. Conservatives have both the house and the Senate.
LOL
And now I see Ben has advanced the same argument (Trump not really conservative) on the post above mine, but said it in a better fashion.
Exactly. This is why the country is in turmoil, because the half witted sheep have found their leader.
The guy that tells them, "You're not half witted! Thump that Bible! Yell at those disrespectful NFL stars! Those other people you don't know are somehow taking your job in factories that don't exist by coming here to pick tomatoes!"
It's all misdirection and sophistry, but to be fair the mainstream politicians haven't come up with much better.
Until there are living wage jobs like manufacturing used to provide pre-NAFTA/other trade agreements for the vast majority of apathetic sheep who think being born on this soil gives them the right to the American dream without much effort, all politicians are like buzzards picking the bones of the failures of their predecessors.
Or successes, depending on your position in the economy.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-19-2017
(10-19-2017, 04:45 AM)gstanford Wrote: The "sheep" aren't half-witted! They didn't implement NAFTA and trade agreements, the rich bastards and their paid off and puppet-stringed political cronies did!
The rich are directly responsible for the position the "sheep" have been placed in!
Yes, the rich are responsible for the position of the sheep.
Nonetheless the sheep are largely half-witted. Mindlessly swapping FB memes as "news of the day" and valid political opinions.
"Look Bubba! A (insert race X) man went on a rampage and killed a noble police officer! Whatever race X gets, they have comin'!!"
"Look at that! An illegal immigrant raped a woman! We need a wall to keep them rapists out!"
Mindless. Sheep.
Led by the nose by the sophistry of low skill PR hacks employed by political parties and foreign governments.
That's not to mention the PR entertainment "news" from low intellect hacks like Rush Limbaugh.
Mindless sheep too lazy or dumb to even consider the meaning of terms like "anecdotal evidence" or "false analogy".
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-20-2017
Ben, you say you think Trump is a populist, but consider this:
- he has been trying to take away healthcare from the poorest Americans
- he has made tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the rich
- he is pro gun
- he is a social conservative
- he sympathizes with white nationalists
- he is pro military
- his education minister is essentially trying to privatize public education nation wide
He ticks all the boxes in terms of what is considered a conservative politician in the USA. Please share with us what he's doing to benefit the poorest Americans and even the middle class for that matter.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SteelCrysis - 10-20-2017
I'll let Ben do the heavy lifting on this, but as for benefiting the middle class, Trump has opened up insurance so that there can be interstate competition.
Edit: As for Trump sympathizing with white nationalists: http://www.newstandardpress.com/the-myth-of-trump-and-the-kkk/
Quote:From 1991 until election day in November 2016, Donald Trump repudiated and disavowed David Duke or the KKK no less than 55 times in 15 public occasions. Seven of those occasions happened before a CNN interview in which he insisted “I know nothing about” David Duke or white supremacists. The media made a monstrous meme out of this one instance when he only said “I know nothing about” instead of “I disavow,” to make it seem as if Trump wanted the support of the KKK. But really, he had already disavowed David Duke publicly two days before and three days before.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-21-2017
(10-20-2017, 08:06 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: I'll let Ben do the heavy lifting on this, but as for benefiting the middle class, Trump has opened up insurance so that there can be interstate competition.
It remains to be seen whether that will "help the middle class".
Trump hasn't really done much so far, no major law passed. (which should be easy with majority in House and Senate)
To me Trump seems like the last of an old guard "I know how business works I must be a leader" type guys. A man out of time whose ideas are from an era that hasn't existed for a long time in this country.
More women than men go to college now, the population is almost 30% non Caucasian, gay folk are a significant minority population, and we're living a lot longer at huge expense. (not to mention being about the only market on the planet that does not regulate pharma prices)
Trump's mentality seems rooted here:
An America that hasn't existed for decades.
The poor see him as some kind of savior of business who will return the factory jobs, but the guys who own the factories can't bring them back with the huge labor cost disparity, they answer to board of directors, not DJT.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-22-2017
Hmmm, and here I thought it was loss of living wage jobs for the masses through outsourcing, coupled with skyrocketing costs of health care, stagnant wages across the board, a sense of entitlement to the lifestyles of the people on tv, competition from foreign markets where labor is cheap, and environmental laws don't apply.
All superannuation hedge funds? Who'd have guessed?
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - dmcowen674 - 10-23-2017
Woo hoo, Republicans raiding American 401K's now.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-23-2017
(10-23-2017, 12:56 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: Woo hoo, Republicans raiding American 401K's now.
People have been saving for retirement for far too long Dave.
The proposed $2400 limit will provide necessary revenue to build the wall to keep bad hombres out of our land in their quest to steal all of our sweet jobs picking peaches!
Again and again the party I voted straight ticket for my whole life (until I voted for Billary in protest) shows me why I will vote straight ticket Democrat in the mid terms and next presidential race.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-23-2017
Serious question for Ben-
Are you a Trump supporter?
If so, color me surprised. You're really smart, no denying that. So I have to wonder how you tolerate the POTUS that speaks in broken sentences comprised of very small words, lets his emotions get the better of him routinely, and just gets a lot of things wrong in general?
If you or I were to debate Trump on any topic, I think you know who would win. I realize being able to debate you or I isn't the benchmark of the job, but shouldn't accuracy and integrity in what you say be one of the metrics?
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-24-2017
Quote:Ben, you say you think Trump is a populist, but consider this:
It's not what I think, it is what every educated political pundit- right or left wing- agrees upon.
Quote:- he has been trying to take away healthcare from the poorest Americans
Polarization issue- a flat out lie. The poorest Americans are covered under government subsidies as they were before- the only exception being the homeless who weren't covered under Obamacare anyway. This is a silly little polarization talking point- not true.
Quote:- he has made tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the rich
/facepalm
The rich pay almost all the taxes, you could eliminate 100% of the tax burden from the middle class and trim 5% off of the top bracket and the rich would 'benefit more'. Show me a tax cut in history that didn't benefit the rich more then the other classes- any tax cut.
Quote:- he is pro gun
He has been talking that way lately, nothing he has done has backed that up, but he is delivering that rhetoric which is actually a 'right wing' issue, I can spot you that one.
Quote:- he is a social conservative
...... what....? Not even a little bit, not in any way that I have ever witnessed- what has he done or said that made you think he was a social conservative? The man comes off as a run of the mill atheist businessman- not saying there is anything particularly wrong with that, just it is not, in any way, socially conservative. Heard him talk about his son in law? The man gushes about him like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread- the Jewish man that married his gentile daughter.
Quote:- he sympathizes with white nationalists
Bullshit. Prove it. Show me anything that he has done that supports this.
Just so you know the level you need to go to- Barrack Obama gave a touching eulogy for a man who was a ranking member of the KKK earlier in his life- while he was President. Show me how Trump has exceeded that level of white nationalist support.
Furthermore- nationalism isn't a right wing ideal- the most murderous nationalist in history was Stalin- poster boy for the extreme left. Nationalism and racism hasn't been a left/right issue since the right freed the slaves.
Quote:- he is pro military
As were FDR and JFK, although at least in the modern sense this has become a right issue so I can spot you that one- at least on a rhetoric basis.
Quote:- his education minister is essentially trying to privatize public education nation wide
Flat out lie- and this is one I would actually want to be true.
You know what she did do though? She made changes that push colleges to allow legitimate trials for people accused of violations of their code instead of summary judgement based on preponderance of evidence. The liberal mouthpiece in the US-
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/opinion/betsy-devos-title-iv.html
So I have he talks to gain the NRA support- although he hasn't done anything to prove that yet- and he talks up the military- although again, no actual actions.
Not very right wing.
Quote:Are you a Trump supporter?
Fuck no, the man is a walking caricature of everything wrong with politicians. He is detestable, a mockery of anything a leader should be. The man cares more about his Twitter feed then any actual accomplishments. Total tool.
With that said, the polarization issue is one we need to deal with. These things just keep getting worse and until they green light us flying KKK/Antifa/NeoNazis onto a deserted island and letting them kill each other, I think we should be working towards dialogue and not demagoguery.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-24-2017
My faith in humanity and Skywalker restored.
Agreed, the politics of divisiveness serve no one but the media hacks who sell the drama.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-25-2017
Well Ben, and this goes for the rest of you Americans on here, I admit I can't really hold a candle to any of you when it comes to US politics. You are all more informed than I am on the issues there. However I do feel that I provide a different perspective. I will try to respond to your latest post, Ben. First of all on healthcare. So fine, what you say is true. However the fact remains that Trump has been trying to *repeal* Obamacare and replace it with new legislation that would insure *less* people for *more* money. If that doesn't scream of right wing partisanship, I really don't know what does. Healthcare in the USA has become a 100% partisan issue. And Trump has been one of the most extreme politicians in the USA on this issue. He even has a lot of people in his own party against him on this issue, notably John McCain.
You say my comment about the education system is bullshit, however it is a fact that Trump's education minister wants charter schools nation wide. Basically parents would be given vouchers to pay a private school for their children's education. So I stand by my comment that she wants to privatize public education in the USA. Perhaps one could argue that it would create a "hybrid" system, but I disagree and I don't think this is a good thing for public education. As Canadians it's nice because we can all watch and learn from what you guys are doing. However if I had kids in the US system right now I would be terrified by what is about to happen. It could go either way and I foresee it ending badly.
As for the tax cuts, from what I understand he has disproportionately benefitted the rich, as a percentage. You are correct that the rich pay more in terms of an absolute sum. But to see them get more tax breaks than people in lower brackets really bothers me, and it should bother 99% of Americans also.
You seem to somewhat agree with me on the other issues. I stand by my belief that Trump is right wing. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing. You guys see him as a populist, I see him as a radical on many levels and in many ways. Disagree if you like, it's just how I see it.
My opinion for what it's worth, and this goes for both the USA and Canada, and the rest of the free world for that matter. CEO salaries need to be capped or else they should be taxed to death. Offshore tax evasion needs to be eliminated completely, with serious jail time for those who try to continue doing it. Those two changes alone are the two biggest social justice issues in terms of the tax code, IMO. I'm still waiting for someone to actually do it. Unfortunately the only people talking about it are on the extreme left of the political spectrum. I would love to see someone moderate have a go at it. I would vote for them.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-25-2017
Ummm...you do know Trump hasn't really "done" much of anything right SB?
No tax changes, no repeal.
And that CEO salaries are a tiny percentage of most company's labor costs and capping them would do about nothing?
Trump a wolf in sheep's clothing? You think he's cagey enough to hide anything? He posts his intentions to the world.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-26-2017
(10-26-2017, 06:01 AM)gstanford Wrote:Quote:And that CEO salaries are a tiny percentage of most company's labor costs and capping them would do about nothing?
Cool! If it is just a tiny percentage of labor costs that means you can take the difference between any cap and what the CEO used to be paid and distribute it amongst the companies other workers. Something tells me they wouldn't regard the resulting bump to their pay packet as "almost nothing".....
Should there be a pay cap for athletes, actors, and pop stars as well?
How about guys that work at the tech service center? You can probably spare $5/hour, should they take it and give it to someone else?
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-27-2017
(10-27-2017, 09:44 AM)gstanford Wrote: I'd set it at $50K myself. Any earnings above and beyond that are just largesse.
Well, that would change life on Earth.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-29-2017
Good luck paying for one of those $1 million dollar Australian homes with a $50k salary. I think $50k is way too low. Maybe try $500k and see what happens. That way the doctors and the lawyers would not be affected. There has to be some motivation to become financially successful.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-29-2017
What if you don't have two people? Single folks aren't allowed to be homeowners?
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - RolloTheGreat - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 06:40 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Good luck paying for one of those $1 million dollar Australian homes with a $50k salary. I think $50k is way too low. Maybe try $500k and see what happens. That way the doctors and the lawyers would not be affected. There has to be some motivation to become financially successful.
You mean people won't do the years at universities, buy malpractice insurance,etc to earn $50k?!
Shocking!
You are correct, people need motivation to work hard, and take financial risk.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 06:56 PM)gstanford Wrote: Actually plenty of people in Australia have done the years at universities (we have had free or low cost uni education, for many years, now you incur a HECS debt),to the point where there is a glut of graduates and a degree is just another piece of paper for a lot of professions and government is looking at telling universities not to offer certain courses due to there being vastly more graduates than positions available. That's what happens when everyone chases something like a university education. It loses the edge it once gave people and simply becomes another large debt to rack up for no good reason.Well, I think a cap of $500k and maybe even a CEO salary cap of $1 million would make a big enough difference. Like I said, try it and see what happens. I would exempt pro athletes though. Some leagues already offer a salary cap, and they deserve to be well paid considering the revenue they are generating for the owners. There are probably some other exemptions that would need to be made also.
I read an article that said once you earn a $75k salary, money beyond that is almost inconsequential. Sure, you can buy nicer things, but it means you'll drive a Mercedes instead of a full loaded Honda Accord. Not exactly life changing. I would say that beyond $500k it becomes even more frivolous. You can live a very luxurious lifestyle on a $500k salary.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 07:37 PM)gstanford Wrote: $50K per person is plenty. Thats $100K per couple. A quarter again more than the $75K you mentioned.
Well the article I read was based on a $75k personal income, not total household income.
I will tell you, my household income is a lot more than $75k and we live a decent life, however we don't have anything extravagant or luxurious. Houses and daycare are extremely expensive here. If we made less we would have no savings. We would have no money to travel and we would go in debt every time we had to fix our house or car. I honestly don't know how people survive on less here.
Sure, we could live very well if we lived in a smaller city, but then it would be harder to find jobs and we would earn a lot less. It's all relative.
Perhaps in your part of Tasmania $50k is plenty. Here where I'm living, that wouldn't cover daycare costs for two kids plus a mortgage. We would starve. Or we would be forced to live in a basement apartment or something. Not exactly a lifestyle people would sacrifice and strive for.
Honestly, I think this is all that needs to be done:
- eliminate offshore tax havens
- eliminate all the loopholes in the tax code for rich people
- cap CEO salaries or tax them to death after a certain point
- create a new tax bracket beyond $500k of income where the government takes a large portion
I really think those four things alone would give the government enough money to really make a difference and make our societies more equitable.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 10-31-2017
Yeah but why should we be living so modestly when our countries are rich? The GDP per capita is something like $46k. Capping us at 50k would basically be like communism. It would never work.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 10-31-2017
My apologies, slammed with work lately, been doing a lot of traveling.
Legit thanks for your reply SB, an honest discussion is far more productive, even if we don't agree on a single thing in the end, if we can better understand each other's points, it eliminates the vitriol and emotional rhetoric.
Quote:You say my comment about the education system is bullshit, however it is a fact that Trump's education minister wants charter schools nation wide.
This is true.
Quote:Basically parents would be given vouchers to pay a private school for their children's education.
Not exactly how it works- and an important distinction- the parents are given a voucher for *less* than the public schools in the area charge. Said another way- public education per pupil dollars go *up* when charter schools are introduced into the system.
Quote:However if I had kids in the US system right now I would be terrified by what is about to happen.
True story- in the area I live in the local government controls its' own budget. When we have surpluses in the budget, a town meeting is held to vote on what to do with the extra money. One of the smaller towns near where I lived ended up with a surplus of a couple hundred thousand dollars one year- the town voted to give all of that money to the top teachers in the district as a bonus- absolutely no strings attached- lump sum cash.
The teachers union legally blocked it.
Not one cent was being taken from their members to pay for it- and they used union dues to finance lawyers to block it in court. Instead the town ended up reducing the next years tax bill for all of its property owners. This is what the US system is actually like right now. The unions are actively doing everything they can to force good teachers out and into private schools. There are about 7,000 charter schools in the US right now- 37,000 traditional high schools(26K public, 11K private). Out of the top 100 schools in the US- charters have about a third, traditional private about the same, with public having the last third.
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings
Four of the top five are from a chain of charter schools in Arizona.
That is simply a generalized look at things. The unions here protect abhorrently bad teachers and refuse to allow good teachers to be paid more- in some cases significantly more- even when people are willing to give it to them. That sound like a good policy decision to you? I'm sure you know, there are teachers who give it their all, and *deserve* a big fat pay check, and others who just want an easy job with summers off. I am not saying teaching is easy per se, I'm saying any job that allows you to suck without repercussion is easy.
That is part of it. Now we need to get into what I personally think was- *BY FAR* the worst thing Obama did to this country. Core.
http://stopcommoncoreinmichigan.com/2014/06/must-read-resignation-letter-ecca-board-president/
A mathematician that actually designed the curriculum talking about how bad it is-
http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2014/12/29/371918272/the-man-behind-common-core-math
Now this last one is an article defending it, you are an educator, judge for yourself-
https://www.salon.com/2015/11/28/youre_wrong_about_common_core_math_sorry_parents_but_it_makes_more_sense_than_you_think/
This is what Obama's policy and public education is doing to our children. Now supposedly this way of learning math is supposed to help people when they reach calculus in high school(or college for some). It has been a long time since I've done calc- not much use for it in my field- so I had three of my teenagers take a crack at how a third graders homework made any sense. With the four of us sitting at the table we were in the 700 aggregate IQ range- the three teens all having completed calc and my daughter doing higher levels and O chem course load for her major at that time- we couldn't figure it out.
This is elementary math. We weren't capable of completing it because they are teaching kids the wrong method of doing it. I say that because it is math- getting the correct answer is what matters(for the examples shown in that article, associative properties of multiplication are still a thing- even for liberals).
So, we have this horrific curriculum being force fed to our students in public schools by increasingly the poorest teachers available. Both of these elements, the abhorrent lessons themselves, and the way in which teaching is compensated, are 100% the lefts way of dealing with it. It has been an abject failure- and it isn't a borderline situation. Given the choice between sentencing a child to public schools or being offered a chance to send them to a charter school, it isn't a hard choice.
Quote:As for the tax cuts, from what I understand he has disproportionately benefitted the rich, as a percentage.
So this gets fairly complicated, but I'm going to give you the straight down the middle version of what is happening.
Right now, the US has a minimum line of income that is 'tax free' after which point you pay a percentage of each dollar graduating to a higher percentage for the more you make.
People pay state taxes also, which state you live in largely fluctuates how much you are going to pay- but the amount you pay to the state comes off of your total federal tax bill(not direct 1:1, but a heavy influence).
There are a staggering amount of deductions that can be taken also, leading to a massively huge amount of complexity in the US tax code.
The new plan removes almost all of those deductions and also removes the ability to deduct your state taxes while roughly doubling the amount of money you can make tax free(this plan works *very* well for low and middle class people in 'red' states).
Now here is where people get really angry. California votes for a state government that has staggering spending levels and huge taxes- that is what they vote for- all the power to them- but then they want to deduct that off of their federal tax bill and make the 'red' states pay proportionally more- this is how things are currently done. The new tax structure would make them actually pay their full federal taxes, and their state taxes that they vote for would be in addition to that amount.
You want to do the math on how that's going to work out for the uber rich? You know the stories about millionaires paying nothing with all the loop holes they use? Those days would pretty much be over. The people paying out straight up what they are supposed to that happen to be rich, yeah, they will probably come out quite a bit ahead.
In the end- what do you call it? I would seriously need to see the tax documents for an individual to be able to tell you if this new plan is a tax cut or not, particularly for the rich.
Quote:You guys see him as a populist, I see him as a radical on many levels and in many ways.
Hitler and Bernie Sanders were both populists too. Populist is a different sort of thing then right/left. Outside of those who revel in populist rhetoric, he has no support base. He *IS* radical- he just isn't 'right'.
Quote:CEO salaries need to be capped or else they should be taxed to death.
Real world scenario that hits close to home for you SB- RIM/Blackberry. A decade ago they were a dominant powerhouse in the global economy having a net worth in the nine figure range employing ~20K people at what was likely ~$75K a year average salary. Now they are a punchline to jokes, employ about ~5K people and could be bought from the quarterly profits of real tech companies.
That's ~$750 Million a year out of the Canadian economy- almost entirely the middle class- because of their moron CEO- you don't think a $20 million a year salary would have been money *VERY* well spent?
This is not abstract, you know this actually happened. If you could go back in a time machine and hire a competent CEO for RIM and had to pay him $20 million a year- knowing he would save those jobs- you wouldn't?
I could bring up *FAR* larger examples on a numerical basis- but I figured I'd throw that out as it is a very real life example relevant to you of what CEO salaries can or can not get you.
Quote:Offshore tax evasion needs to be eliminated completely, with serious jail time for those who try to continue doing it.
Honest question, do you know what this actually is? I ask that as you benefit from this, a lot.
Right now because of all the free trade agreements business operate on an international level and have several ways to account for their profits. A big example of this would be GM- I'll use them because they are important to all of our economies. If GM makes $500 million in profit selling cars in Canada they can keep that money in Canada and pay Canadian corporate taxes on it- at a *SIGNIFICANTLY* lower rate then in the US. If they take this profit in Ontario, they pay $132.5 Million between federal and provincial taxes. If they count that as profit for the US, they pay $195.5 million on that same money. They leave the profit in Canada- pay Canadian taxes, that is off shored money.
Still want to send people to jail for this?
Quote:Those two changes alone are the two biggest social justice issues in terms of the tax code, IMO.
I'd be curious as to your answers for my two questions regarding those two points before I go further with them, just trying to make sure I understand exactly where you are coming from.
BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 11-01-2017
Ben you're comparing corporations to people who are buying stocks from brokers on the island of Mann and keeping the money there so that they don't have to pay capital gains tax. Big difference. Those are the people I have a big problem with.
As for the CEOs, if their salaries are capped or if they are heavily taxed beyond a certain point, it levels the playing field and your argument becomes largely moot.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 11-01-2017
Quote:Ben you're comparing corporations to people who are buying stocks from brokers on the island of Mann and keeping the money there so that they don't have to pay capital gains tax.
I'm bringing up where the overwhelming majority of off shored money actually is. The personal transactions are rounding errors, the hundred billion dollar companies paying their taxes in corporate friendly countries to avoid paying higher taxes is where the vast majority of off shoring comes from in terms of financial numbers. When you read reports about the trillions of dollars in off shored money- that is from corporations- not individuals. You mentioned these being major social issues- if you are saying that tens of millions in lost revenue is a major social issue, I guess that is your right. Hundreds of billions of dollars, which I consider a much bigger issue, is something very different.
Your actual example is a minuscule rounding error, it is not a significant factor for any major nation.
Quote:As for the CEOs, if their salaries are capped or if they are heavily taxed beyond a certain point, it levels the playing field and your argument becomes largely moot.
No, it absolutely doesn't.
You have stated you think some roid freak who plays games all his life is worth that kind of money- but someone who helps the economy hold onto a billion dollars a years is somehow not.....?
I have a fundamental problem with slavery of any form, so what is your idea to prevent every company from complete collapse when no one will take those jobs? Day trading is a cake walk compared to a CEO, and you can make *WAY* more money then what you are talking about.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 11-01-2017
(11-01-2017, 12:51 PM)BenSkywalker Wrote:I'm saying cap the CEO salaries to a reasonable level. Right now we're seeing CEOs make hundreds or even thousands of times as much as the average worker makes in the company. Make it relative tied to the net worth of the company. Bigger companies can pay their CEOs more. The way it's working now is absurd. I agree that a good CEO is worth a lot, and there is a lot of merit to what they do, as you are saying. The issue I have with it is that their salaries are way out of control.Quote:Ben you're comparing corporations to people who are buying stocks from brokers on the island of Mann and keeping the money there so that they don't have to pay capital gains tax.
I'm bringing up where the overwhelming majority of off shored money actually is. The personal transactions are rounding errors, the hundred billion dollar companies paying their taxes in corporate friendly countries to avoid paying higher taxes is where the vast majority of off shoring comes from in terms of financial numbers. When you read reports about the trillions of dollars in off shored money- that is from corporations- not individuals. You mentioned these being major social issues- if you are saying that tens of millions in lost revenue is a major social issue, I guess that is your right. Hundreds of billions of dollars, which I consider a much bigger issue, is something very different.
Your actual example is a minuscule rounding error, it is not a significant factor for any major nation.
Quote:As for the CEOs, if their salaries are capped or if they are heavily taxed beyond a certain point, it levels the playing field and your argument becomes largely moot.
No, it absolutely doesn't.
You have stated you think some roid freak who plays games all his life is worth that kind of money- but someone who helps the economy hold onto a billion dollars a years is somehow not.....?
I have a fundamental problem with slavery of any form, so what is your idea to prevent every company from complete collapse when no one will take those jobs? Day trading is a cake walk compared to a CEO, and you can make *WAY* more money then what you are talking about.
As for the offshore money, I have a feeling that the amount involved is a lot higher than you think. You are correct that it pales in comparison to the offshore corporate money, but really, it's not fair at all that these extremely wealthy people are paying *nothing* in terms of income tax on all that money.
If you are worried about offshore corporate money, perhaps you should lobby your government to lower the corporate tax rate. Despite all our socialism here in Canada, we have much lower corporate taxes, as you have mentioned. I'm sure it has attracted a lot of American corporations to set up shop here.
Canada does a lot of things right. Bernie Sanders was just here analyzing our health care system. We pay half as much per capita on health care here compared to the USA and everyone is covered. It blows my mind that you guys aren't all lobbying your politicians to essentially implement our system down there. It would be way better for you. The FUD you hear about our system is not true. We receive excellent care overall. Prescription drugs are much cheaper here also.
The big problem with US politics is all the partisanship and blind ideology. For example, Trump Jr. taking away his young daughter's Halloween candy to teach her about "socialism". People like that are the reason why you guys will never have nice things like universal healthcare. Too many trolls that can't see beyond their own nose or their own backyard.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 11-03-2017
Quote:Right now we're seeing CEOs make hundreds or even thousands of times as much as the average worker makes in the company.
How much does someone playing in the minors make compared to Sidney Crosby? How about a small town stage actor compared to an A list Hollywood star? I could keep going over and over with comparable examples, but the top tier of talent normally makes thousands of times more then the lowest tier in all sorts of fields, why should the one field that actually matters to the masses be different? That's an honest question, I don't understand the logic behind your train of thought, am genuinely curious.
Quote:Make it relative tied to the net worth of the company.
Shutting down first world factories and moving them to south east Asia is the fastest way for most companies to up their valuation, do we really want to encourage more of that?
Quote:As for the offshore money, I have a feeling that the amount involved is a lot higher than you think. You are correct that it pales in comparison to the offshore corporate money, but really, it's not fair at all that these extremely wealthy people are paying *nothing* in terms of income tax on all that money.
In 1952 corporate taxes paid 32% of the US budget, today that is around 10%-
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/corporate-tax-avoidance/478293/
During that time corporate profits have absolutely exploded.
Quote:If you are worried about offshore corporate money, perhaps you should lobby your government to lower the corporate tax rate.
You are *FAR* to my right on this one. I'd rather corporations pay a higher share then people. I think the US doesn't tax corporations enough, but with global trading they keep their money in the far right countries. Individuals pay eight times what corporations pay in the US already- claiming to be progressive while suggesting we favor corporations even more seems a bit of a stretch to me.
Quote:It blows my mind that you guys aren't all lobbying your politicians to essentially implement our system down there.
The US pays a hugely disproportionate percentage of global medical R&D, if we implement your system, we hurt our children. If we take trillions out of the medical industry, where do you think it's going to come from? Now I'd like to see all countries pitch in a fair amount so we don't have to carry the burden, but I'm not OK with R&D levels plummeting for all of humanity to save a couple of bucks.
Quote:The FUD you hear about our system is not true.
Most of my mother's side of the family lives in Canada, I don't particularly consider funerals FUD, and I've had to go to a few that were caused by the 'quality' of health care in Canada. If you have unlimited money, you come to the US if you get really sick. Yes, I understand that prices some people out of the market, and there are certainly things we could do that would help lessen the gap, but if the only way to do that is to lose the top end- that just doesn't make sense. The hyper expensive treatments only the rich can afford today, in ten years regular people will be able to afford, in twenty years even Canada will have it. Simply removing the top tier of care doesn't, in any way, make us better.
Quote:For example, Trump Jr. taking away his young daughter's Halloween candy to teach her about "socialism".
That was a joke..... I'm honestly stupefied that people took that seriously
Quote:People like that are the reason why you guys will never have nice things like universal healthcare.
If the rest of the world did things our way we'd probably have cancer cured by now.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 11-04-2017
Ben I'm talking about universal health care for 1/2 the cost of the broken system the USA has currently where not everyone is covered. It is not going to affect medical research at all if you guys implement the Canadian system in the USA. That's related to the pharmaceutical industry. I'm assuming you are referring to the generic drugs we use here. It's a completely different and separate issue.
As for your comments on our system here, I'm telling you your family is very unlucky to have had an experience like that. Our system is great and I never hear anyone here complaining about it, nor have I heard of anyone dying because of a long wait for care. I also feel that the health care we receive here is pretty top notch.
Like I said, universal health care is a partisan issue and anyone on the right of the spectrum there will vote against it vehemently based on their own principles and steadfast beliefs. These people will not waver or listen to any sort of reason.
Anyhow, what I have taken from our discussion is that the USA needs to somehow overhaul or revamp the way money is spent on social programs. With such a massive country and population it's going to take some real creativity to solve the problem. For you guys to spend more than we do here and have less to show for it tells me there is some type of corruption in the system down there. Too many palms getting greased.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - BenSkywalker - 11-04-2017
Quote:It is not going to affect medical research at all if you guys implement the Canadian system in the USA.
Do you honestly believe that? On so many levels, that isn't true.
First off- Doctor salaries in the US dwarf what they are anywhere else in the world. We attract top minds because of this, minds we could and would very easily lose to the tech, legal or financial industries if the pay structures were to change. On average Drs here make about $60K per year *more* than in Canada. Second- Medical equipment- all of the latest technology in terms of financing for high price machines be they the latest in imaging/scoping or scanning- are funded by the enormous price tag they have which the US system pays for. Major advancements in medical research aren't just from the pharmaceutical industry, although that is a big part of it, many facets including treatment and diagnostic equipment also get a *large* financial boost from our money.
For the record I'm not saying you are cheap, in most metrics you guys spend the second most in the world behind us.
Quote:That's related to the pharmaceutical industry. I'm assuming you are referring to the generic drugs we use here. It's a completely different and separate issue.
Not really a separate issue, we have generic drugs here too, and they represent the majority of medication prescribed(probably not in dollar amount, but by a large margin in numbers of pills). The government artificially limiting spending in certain sectors results in less R&D in those sectors. That is an absolute. The only way to offset this is for the government to fund things itself, but as you have noted- government spending doesn't tend to be terribly efficient.
Quote:Like I said, universal health care is a partisan issue and anyone on the right of the spectrum there will vote against it vehemently based on their own principles and steadfast beliefs. These people will not waver or listen to any sort of reason.
If I were to read a legit financial breakdown of how such a system could be done without sacrificing long term I'd be all ears. This is much like defense spending unfortunately- if all the other countries would do their part, we could dramatically lower our defense spending, but they aren't willing to and for the good of the human race, we do it(I personally think we should drop that one and let the world deal with destabilization because of their lack of military spending personally, but I'm in the minority). I have yet to see a singular proposal from anyone that has shown how we could approach the level of effectiveness we have today at the high end while implementing a nationalized system. For me I'm a hard line pragmatist. Show me how it is actually going to work better, not in a touchy feely way, but actually produce superior results, and I'm all for it.
Quote:Anyhow, what I have taken from our discussion is that the USA needs to somehow overhaul or revamp the way money is spent on social programs.
Trump was called a right wing nutjob for proposing we only spend 44% more then you normalized for GDP. I absolutely agree with what you are saying, I'm just pointing out the level of partisanship there is in this country. The welfare state that has been built up is an abject failure in terms of getting results for the money we are spending, any proposals to adjust it are met with shrill cries of lunatic zealots from both wings.
I am not a Republican, you can go way back and check, I haven't supported a R candidate for a long time, I am very much a pragmatist and someone obsessed with the economic truth 'The only way for a body of people to increase their standard of living is to increase their productivity'. That is my problem with most leftist ideals, they don't even try and pretend that is what they are doing. Show me some government programs that are an effective use of money, I'll gladly give them my support.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 11-04-2017
Well, as I have already pointed out, the universal health care system in Canada is a government program here in Canada that covers more people than the private system in the USA, for half the cost. It's pretty cut and dry. Perhaps some government programs are inefficient however this is a clear example of a government system being more effective and efficient than the private sector.
I have seen other examples where *unionized* public sector employees were just as effective as private sector companies, for the same net cost. It's not as simple as just saying that the government is inefficient. It is my personal belief that our public utilities and infrastructure should all be publicly funded and owned. In terms of electricity in particular I have seen time and time again where privatized systems cost ratepayers way more per month compared to publicly owned utilities. If you want to see a good example of this, look at Quebec here in Canada. They probably have the cheapest electricity rates in North America. Their system is well designed, well built, government owned, and completely clean and carbon free.
RE: BoFox! Ocre! iRollo! - SickBeast - 12-08-2017
Hey Rollo, what's going on? We haven't heard from you in a bit. It sounded like you were going through a bit of a tough time, and then you started talking about the "sauce". Is everything ok? I hope all is well!
