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+--- Thread: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet (/showthread.php?tid=1033)
Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - dmcowen674 - 01-21-2016
1-19-2016
[/url]
[url=http://www.dailydot.com/politics/anonymity-homeland-security-erik-barnett/]Senior Homeland Security official says Internet anonymity should be outlawed
A senior Homeland Security official recently argued that Internet anonymity should outlawed in the same way that driving a car without a license plate is against the law.
Erik Barnett, an assistant deputy director at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and attache to the European Union at the Department of Homeland Security, outlined his argument in an article titled “Whose Privacy Are We Protecting?
“When a person drives a car on a highway, he or she agrees to display a license plate,” Barnett wrote.
Nate Cardozo, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, called the idea “plainly unconstitutional.”
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - dmcowen674 - 01-21-2016
They will eventually get people chipped and Licensed.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-21-2016
Given the sheer potential of the internet as a tool, much like a car has, he actually makes a good argument. Good luck getting the anonymity-loving mainstream media to admit this. Anyone in said media who breaks away from the pro-anonymity line line will get smeared by the rest of the media acting as one. It's a self-reinforcing echo chamber.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-21-2016
But we do use the cars and roads to speak freely. Through them, we speak about where we want to go, and what our priorities are in selecting a car. Not sure what freedom of speech has to do with anonymity.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-21-2016
He's talking about license plates, not a driver's license.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-21-2016
Very well, I admit that I was being silly on purpose. But his analogy about license plates remains excellent.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-21-2016
Lots of problems with this.
On the surface, there's appeal to being able to ID people using the net for illegal purposes, no denying it.
I have to wonder if this would be like anything else that requires ID though and the people who want to skirt it do so with fake IDs. (digital in this case)
I also wonder what the fallout would be for people who DON'T use the net for illegal purposes with their identity stored online in a database that would be the worlds biggest target for hackers.
"This guy Rollo says he spent over a hundred grand on cars in the last couple years, his house is probably a good one to rob!"
"This guy Rollo thinks he's better than everyone and that the government should not give us a house, food, and a HMO to hang around drinking cheap beer and watching daytime tv, lets go slash his tires!"
What they propose might well end freedom of speech on the internet for the 99% of people who use it for legal purposes to make it (possibly) harder for criminals to use it. I say "possibly" because last I checked people illegally buy pot, guns, sex, etc so I'm not convinced they can do what they say. Lots of people drive without licenses or legal license plates as well.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 08:54 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: Lots of problems with this.None of the pitfalls you list don't already exist with license plate databases, yet I don't see you or anyone else calling for their abolishment. This is including the pitfall of police databases of license plates getting hacked. And the last time I checked, police license plate databases haven't ended freedom of speech, so you're not making any sense.
On the surface, there's appeal to being able to ID people using the net for illegal purposes, no denying it.
I have to wonder if this would be like anything else that requires ID though and the people who want to skirt it do so with fake IDs. (digital in this case)
I also wonder what the fallout would be for people who DON'T use the net for illegal purposes with their identity stored online in a database that would be the worlds biggest target for hackers.
"This guy Rollo says he spent over a hundred grand on cars in the last couple years, his house is probably a good one to rob!"
"This guy Rollo thinks he's better than everyone and that the government should not give us a house, food, and a HMO to hang around drinking cheap beer and watching daytime tv, lets go slash his tires!"
What they propose might well end freedom of speech on the internet for the 99% of people who use it for legal purposes to make it (possibly) harder for criminals to use it. I say "possibly" because last I checked people illegally buy pot, guns, sex, etc so I'm not convinced they can do what they say. Lots of people drive without licenses or legal license plates as well.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-21-2016
"Freedom of speech" has long been considered one of the foundations of our society.
This is guaranteed to impact freedom of speech.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-21-2016
A license plate to use the internet that doesn't give away your identity to the general public isn't going to affect freedom of speech in the slightest, just like car license plates don't.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-22-2016
(01-22-2016, 08:21 AM)gstanford Wrote: Once again we don't use cars to speak, we do the internet.
And we've never needed a license to speak, nor should we.
Anonymity is the soul of free speech.
A guy posting as "Celtics Fan" may be far more likely to give an honest opinion of Obamacare, or conversely the House govt shutdowns.
Do we "need" Celtics Fan's thoughts on either? I'd say "yes" because grassroots discussion is how public opinion is formed, then people elected, then laws created or changed.
The writers of the Constitution and Biil of Rights would certainly have been against this.
Not to mention (again) the only people who will register will not be the ones the govt wants to catch.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-22-2016
OK, I get it now. Good point.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - dmcowen674 - 01-22-2016
(01-22-2016, 09:06 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:(01-22-2016, 08:21 AM)gstanford Wrote: Once again we don't use cars to speak, we do the internet.
The writers of the Constitution and Biil of Rights would certainly have been against this.
Not to mention (again) the only people who will register will not be the ones the govt wants to catch.
That's why people will be required to be chipped and licensed.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SteelCrysis - 01-22-2016
(01-22-2016, 09:48 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: That's why people will be required to be chipped and licensed.That's a bridge too far for me.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-22-2016
(01-22-2016, 09:48 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote:(01-22-2016, 09:06 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:(01-22-2016, 08:21 AM)gstanford Wrote: Once again we don't use cars to speak, we do the internet.
The writers of the Constitution and Biil of Rights would certainly have been against this.
Not to mention (again) the only people who will register will not be the ones the govt wants to catch.
That's why people will be required to be chipped and licensed.
You'll never see it outside a science fiction movie.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - dmcowen674 - 01-22-2016
You haven't seen the contracts.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-23-2016
(01-22-2016, 08:59 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: You haven't seen the contracts.
A couple years ago a survivalist guy I knew on FB (wife from hometown) had a link to a contract where Homeland Security was supposedly buying millions of bullets, and the big round up of gun owners was about to begin.
Uh huh.
Checks and balances here Dave, nothing very radical ever happens. (and thankfully so)
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - dmcowen674 - 01-23-2016
You're funny. Scary but funny.
Remember it's all about the computers.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-23-2016
(01-23-2016, 04:17 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: You're funny. Scary but funny.
Remember it's all about the computers.
The "scary" thing is guys thinking the US government is out to "oppress" them.
They do something stupid (like Obamacare) every now and again, but we have it better than almost everywhere else on the planet.
(and the places we have it "worse" than, it's arguable)
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - dmcowen674 - 01-24-2016
Open your eyes man
, the U.S. has fallen down on just about every list from Education to Health to Internet etc.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-24-2016
(01-24-2016, 01:28 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: Open your eyes man
My eyes are open. My son's HS is a palace, the facilities and staff excellent. They email us all the time to keep us up to date with what is going on with Rollo Jr., have been very helpful keeping him on the honor roll by working with him at lunch or after school if he has questions. They've recommended private tutors for his guitar, percussion and soccer.
I can go see great Dr.s at great facilities any time I want, immediately.
I have 4G phone internet and 60MBps home internet for reasonable prices.
Cops always drive by in my neighborhood, making it safe.
It all depends where you're at in the US, it's a big place. For my son getting 3.4-3.5 GPAs means he's in the middle of the pack in his class. Head to some schools he'd rank higher, some he'd rank lower.
We "fall behind" in education because a lot of parents aren't like Mrs. Rollo, helping our son stay on task and studying with him daily. If you just drop them off at school and say "did my part", you get back what you put in.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-24-2016
Point being:
You can't look at Detroit or Stank Possum, Arkansas as "America falling behind".
There are places in America that are turning into the stone age, but it's more due to their citizens not trying then the country failing the citizens. Everyone gets free primary education and fed while they get it.
Anyone who wants to go to vocational or standard college can get a myriad of aid in the form of grants, loans, scholarships, housing assistance, jobs on campus, etc..
And if you don't want go to college, stats show you have at least a 50% chance to earn $35,000 a year or more. If you team up with a roommate or spouse making $35K as well, you can live a very decent life here on $70k combined.
Nowhere in the world I'd rather be Dave.
Nowhere in the world you should wish you were.
America is truly the greatest country on the planet, you just need to get out of the freaking city. City is a rich mans game.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SickBeast - 01-24-2016
Oh man I can only imagine what would happen if Rollo required a license in order to use the internet! It would be such a treat!
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SickBeast - 01-24-2016
By the way, guys, I will tell you this honestly, I have travelled in the US quite extensively and I have to tell you that Canada is way nicer. I notice a difference as soon as I cross the border. In a lot of places it's very similar but we don't have the huge ghettoes or extreme poverty that you see there. I feel much safer in Canada as well. Perhaps that could be because it's "home" to me and I have never had a safety concern in all my years here. I think people like Dave are onto something and really you guys should be working together to get something better down there.
I will say that the US climate is much nicer than what we have here and I would say that you have a stronger economy and a way more powerful military. In all the areas that affect quality of life, however, we have it better here, hands down.
I do plan to live in the States half time when I retire. I'm not saying it's bad or terrible there. I'm just saying that you guys should be working toward doing better. It seems like the progressives and the democrats who have that thought process. Trump is interesting though. I like what he wants to do for the middle class.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-24-2016
Gosh Sick Beast you must be the only guy who knows how much nicer Canada is!
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2012/06/28/americans_threaten_to_move_to_canada_do_canadians_ever_threaten_to_move_to_the_us_.html
Quote:According to a report by Statistics Canada about 167,300 Canadian residents moved to the U.S. between 2001 and 2006*. That’s about 33,000 per year. By comparison about 9,000 Americans move to Canada each year, and the U.S. has nine times as many people.
Wonder why almost 4X as many Canadians move her than Americans moving there, when we have 9X the population?
Could it be Canadians are masochists by nature, who move here to punish themselves? Or is that Americans are masochists by nature and want to stay here and suffer????
Or could it be that things are not as you say, and in general people would just rather live here unless they're welfare cases?
Here's another startling fact in light of your "Canada is better" assertions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population
The USA not only has the highest immigration rate in general (4X the next highest) but has 7X the immigration rate of Canada. (which by your accounts is "way nicer")
I guess the whole world doesn't know what you know Sick Beast, or acts against their own self interest.
Oh yeah, one last thing:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in-immigration-us-loses-out-to-canada-2013-10-18
It's easier to immigrate to Canada than the USA. So 7X as many people go through a more difficult process to get here, and you say it's "way nicer" there.
Should I say "p3wnd" or will you just admit it here and we move on?
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-24-2016
(01-24-2016, 10:48 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh man I can only imagine what would happen if Rollo required a license in order to use the internet! It would be such a treat!
I'd still need to educate you guys, the Dean told us we had a responsibility to lead when we graduated from one of the world's best Universities.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SickBeast - 01-24-2016
Oh no not this again. Rollo I don't know if I have the time or the patience to prove you wrong yet again. I will say that I read one of your links and while the USA did take in more immigrants, Canada took in almost twice as many immigrants per capita. You are forgetting the fact that the USA has ten times the population of Canada. Multiply Canada's figure by ten and you will see that we in fact take in way more immigrants in a relative sense.
As for people from Canada moving to the States and vice versa, I will tell you that it's quite common for people from Canada to immigrate to the USA when they retire. The weather is the main draw. You should understand coming from Wisconsin that the long winters here can wear you down over time. Also, I never said that the USA is terrible, because it's not by any means. It is definitely a decent place to live. I'm just pointing out that you guys can do better.
As usual I expect one of your nonsense rebuttals to this post. I do know, however, that I am correct in stating that we do take in more immigrants from a relative standpoint compared to the USA. Nice try though. You are the master of spinning facts.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-25-2016
(01-24-2016, 09:53 PM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh no not this again. Rollo I don't know if I have the time or the patience to prove you wrong yet again. I will say that I read one of your links and while the USA did take in more immigrants, Canada took in almost twice as many immigrants per capita. You are forgetting the fact that the USA has ten times the population of Canada. Multiply Canada's figure by ten and you will see that we in fact take in way more immigrants in a relative sense.
Did you happen to learn the meaning of the word "specious" along the way?
How many people currently live in Canada has nothing whatsoever to do with my argument or yours.
If 1 person lived in Canada and 100 billion lived in the USA, it wouldn't change the fact SEVEN TIMES as many people try to move here as there.
Unless you can somehow make a case that the number of people living in a place determines how many people will want to live there? If you guys have it so good, I'd think the lower population density would add to the allure. If I have to live in an apartment, I'd rather live in a 1000 sq foot apartment than a 600 sq foot apartment. If I'm going to have a yard I'd rather have a half acre than a quarter. Since when is being stacked on top of people an attraction?
You yourself said our "crowded ghettoes" suck- yet people prefer here to there 7:1. It's not even close.
(01-24-2016, 09:53 PM)SickBeast Wrote: As for people from Canada moving to the States and vice versa, I will tell you that it's quite common for people from Canada to immigrate to the USA when they retire. The weather is the main draw. You should understand coming from Wisconsin that the long winters here can wear you down over time. Also, I never said that the USA is terrible, because it's not by any means. It is definitely a decent place to live. I'm just pointing out that you guys can do better.
So Canada is "way nicer" except for freezing all the time? We get snow in December and I'm fishing in my canoe every March. I can handle ice fishing for 3 months of the year. (I actually look forward to the change)
(01-24-2016, 09:53 PM)SickBeast Wrote: As usual I expect one of your nonsense rebuttals to this post. I do know, however, that I am correct in stating that we do take in more immigrants from a relative standpoint compared to the USA. Nice try though. You are the master of spinning facts.
From my perspective, my argument is incontrovertible. Population has nothing to do with why less people move to Canada. Less people move to China and India too, and they have MANY more people than the USA. Guess your logic only applies to the USA?
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SickBeast - 01-25-2016
Of course, Rollo. Whatever you say. Let's just put whatever parameters we need to on this discussion so that you can be right. Do you notice how you need to set your own parameters? You never seem to be able to debate something on its own merits. You always need this bullshit.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - BoFox - 01-25-2016
(01-24-2016, 04:51 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: Point being:
You can't look at Detroit or Stank Possum, Arkansas as "America falling behind".
There are places in America that are turning into the stone age, but it's more due to their citizens not trying then the country failing the citizens. Everyone gets free primary education and fed while they get it.
Anyone who wants to go to vocational or standard college can get a myriad of aid in the form of grants, loans, scholarships, housing assistance, jobs on campus, etc..
And if you don't want go to college, stats show you have at least a 50% chance to earn $35,000 a year or more. If you team up with a roommate or spouse making $35K as well, you can live a very decent life here on $70k combined.
Nowhere in the world I'd rather be Dave.
Nowhere in the world you should wish you were.
America is truly the greatest country on the planet, you just need to get out of the freaking city. City is a rich mans game.
Lots of Europeans disagree. Most of them believe that their own country is the greatest on the planet. Same for many Australians, New Zealanders, Japanese, Israelis, etc..
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - BoFox - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 03:28 PM)gstanford Wrote:(01-24-2016, 07:40 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:(01-24-2016, 10:48 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh man I can only imagine what would happen if Rollo required a license in order to use the internet! It would be such a treat!
I'd still need to educate you guys, the Dean told us we had a responsibility to lead when we graduated from one of the world's best Universities.
Christian missionaries and other religious fundamentalist types think they have a responsibility to spread their religion too, no matter what the person they are forcing it down the neck of may think......
*Sobs* and so do atheists.... *sobs*!!!
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - BoFox - 01-25-2016
I get lots of it here on the freaking internet from the likes of you preaching arses!
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 02:55 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Of course, Rollo. Whatever you say. Let's just put whatever parameters we need to on this discussion so that you can be right. Do you notice how you need to set your own parameters? You never seem to be able to debate something on its own merits. You always need this bullshit.
I understand you frustration.
Canada and the USA are both first world countries with large metropolitan areas, highly developed infrastructures, very similar in many ways.
You throw out that it's "much nicer" to live in Canada, on the heels of many times stating how Canada is more "advanced/progressive" and the USA should be doing better.
It must be quite the shock to you to find out that internationally seven times as many move to the country you disparage and belittle, even though it's more difficult to get into the "less advanced, less nice" place.
Worse yet, the people leaving Canada to come here compared to those who leave here to go there is a 4:1 ratio.
What you're experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance". You have a set of beliefs you have constructed about the superiority of Canadian life, I've showed you (with facts from your own government) that people who move would rather live here than there. (by a large margin)
So you trot out your "it's skewed because you have more people!" defense, forgetting that the whole point of human existence is to get more space and live in less population density. You ever hear of rich people moving to smaller apartments, smaller houses?
Canada is 230th for population density, and the USA is around 180. So they're pretty similar with the advantage going to Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density
Very strange that the nicer place to live that has more space to do it and similar employment prospects, isn't it?
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 03:31 PM)BoFox Wrote:(01-25-2016, 03:28 PM)gstanford Wrote:(01-24-2016, 07:40 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:(01-24-2016, 10:48 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh man I can only imagine what would happen if Rollo required a license in order to use the internet! It would be such a treat!
I'd still need to educate you guys, the Dean told us we had a responsibility to lead when we graduated from one of the world's best Universities.
Christian missionaries and other religious fundamentalist types think they have a responsibility to spread their religion too, no matter what the person they are forcing it down the neck of may think......
*Sobs* and so do atheists.... *sobs*!!!
Neither is enough to get upset about. Every now and again I will be solicited by a religious person, every now and again freedom from religion people will complain about religion in government.
Neither is worth debating or concern.
People should practice their religion as they see fit, the rest should let them do it and say "No thank you" when solicited.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - RolloTheGreat - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 05:47 PM)gstanford Wrote: It is simply that the USA is hyped more (the land of the "free"
Ah, the AMD defense again?
"Don't believe the marketing hype, our products are really better!"
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - BoFox - 01-26-2016
(01-25-2016, 05:53 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:(01-25-2016, 03:31 PM)BoFox Wrote:(01-25-2016, 03:28 PM)gstanford Wrote:(01-24-2016, 07:40 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:(01-24-2016, 10:48 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh man I can only imagine what would happen if Rollo required a license in order to use the internet! It would be such a treat!
I'd still need to educate you guys, the Dean told us we had a responsibility to lead when we graduated from one of the world's best Universities.
Christian missionaries and other religious fundamentalist types think they have a responsibility to spread their religion too, no matter what the person they are forcing it down the neck of may think......
*Sobs* and so do atheists.... *sobs*!!!
Neither is enough to get upset about. Every now and again I will be solicited by a religious person, every now and again freedom from religion people will complain about religion in government.
Neither is worth debating or concern.
People should practice their religion as they see fit, the rest should let them do it and say "No thank you" when solicited.
While it's a really good post, just look at Youtube - if it's one of the largest and most liberal forums of any kind on the internet. See how there are maybe 5 times as many angry atheist "activists" bashing the Bible at every opportunity as there are those who do the opposite of bashing and the opposite of trying to deny the existence of God. Such atheists take great liberty at mocking Christianity and religions in general, go to great lengths to spread fud and lies like Poppin did on his own forum about Jesus being gay, etc.. So, it's ok with Gstan for these atheists to spread all kinds of crap but the honest believer cannot defend his own beliefs?? If not, then such fundamental keystone to all freedom (such as personal freedom from what the government believes in) goes out of the window and straight into the sewer drain. Such atheists like BallatheFeared were avid at proselytizing me without showing any respect for my own beliefs, but failed to sway me - I just mocked back at him like a friend would with joking back at each other. I'm guessing he didn't like it at all? These atheists are just too damn serious these days... intent at proselytizing the world with their atheistically (ironically in and of itself) pointless beliefs. If somebody tries to spread lies and confusion about the Bible, I'll counter it with what makes sense with me from its literal wording and context.
Anyway, Rollo - if you won $15 million cash, where would you move to, if not just stay in Wisconsin?
At least Sickbeast has the guts to admit that he wants to live part-time in the US, despite the uglier aspects of this country compared to Canada. I'd do the same myself, just for the weather alone (hence, Hawaii... here I come, baby... someday!!!)
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - SickBeast - 01-26-2016
Yes I do want to live part time in the States. Probably 6 months out of the year. I hope you guys don't misunderstand me. I love the USA and I think Americans are wonderful people. Actually a really good friend of mine is American from Minnesota and he's one of the nicest people I have ever met. All I am saying is that you guys can do better in some ways. It's honest criticism. I'm not trying to come on here with some air of superiority. Actually retrospectively I probably did come across that way; it's just that Rollo and Ben are too caught up in their own ideas and they never listen. In any event, that's basically my point. I have nothing against the USA and I think you guys bring a lot of good things to the world. Just please fix your health care and your gun issues. It would also be nice if you guys could make things more equitable down there.
RE: Homeland Security to require License to get on the Internet - BoFox - 01-26-2016
(01-24-2016, 04:51 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: Point being:
You can't look at Detroit or Stank Possum, Arkansas as "America falling behind".
There are places in America that are turning into the stone age, but it's more due to their citizens not trying then the country failing the citizens. Everyone gets free primary education and fed while they get it.
Anyone who wants to go to vocational or standard college can get a myriad of aid in the form of grants, loans, scholarships, housing assistance, jobs on campus, etc..
And if you don't want go to college, stats show you have at least a 50% chance to earn $35,000 a year or more. If you team up with a roommate or spouse making $35K as well, you can live a very decent life here on $70k combined.
Nowhere in the world I'd rather be Dave.
Nowhere in the world you should wish you were.
America is truly the greatest country on the planet, you just need to get out of the freaking city. City is a rich mans game.
If that is actually the point - being that you believe in the American Dream, the American spirit - with a promise of chutes and ladders that only go upward at every opportunity whenever work is put forth, like this game:
![[Image: Cnl03.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/ba/Cnl03.jpg)
---BUT WITH ONLY THE LADDERS!!!
So, if the American Dream is to firmly be believed in like you claim, let's see you put money in your mouth instead of paying for Rollo Jr's education. See him work for his own college tuition. Get scholarships by being a high school valedictorian. Let him pay for his own car.
What if your parents didn't support you with any of these while you wanted to get a college degree? Would you still be RollotheGREAT??
It's not that cut and dry like the American Dream BS that you're continuing to romanticize around the world - keeping true to the traditional idealism like Christmas and Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. For every one Oprah, there are like 10000 complete outright failures that could've been even better than Oprah, but yet got screwed by healthcare costs, family issues, etc.. etc.. (the list goes on and on and on.. - yep, the list indeed exists just like Santa's list of naughty kids - except that it's not always the kid's fault really).
There you go - you're still like "fuck those who do not make enough $ to pay for emergency healthcare costs - it's all their fault and they should be screwed for life as they deserved." Where's the American Dream in this??? I thought it was supposed to be all ladders...
Better for Rollo Jr to be completely self-made according to the American Guarantee, than to be spoon-fed and encouraged to be somewhat of a slacker, eh..... unless you don't truly believe in this American Dream/Guarantee/Spirit that you otherwise profess?
