U.S. Middle Class nearly gone

[BenSkywalker]

Capitalist Globalization.

The problem with this even on an abstract level is that we don't have anything remotely close to being in the realm of what that implies.

More than 1/3 of the Earth's population are trapped in either a second world nigh slave status, or locked in a caste system. When you attempt to insert them into markets that operate freely, you throw a hand grenade in the capitalist machine. Let's introduce billions of people who work for less then what it would cost us to have actual slaves- just doesn't approach a global capitalist utopia esque reality.

[RolloTheGreat]

5) It all depends - if the parents already have bad credit (due to student loans, or having to depend on credit cards just to pay the bills during hard times or when moving, etc.), then they would have to settle for a used car for sale in the personal ads without any financing.  Some car dealers allow for direct deduction from work paychecks, but the fees/interest rates are probably a rip-off. 

OK but that adds other factors into the equation that don't necessarily exist, and could be a factor for ANYONE. "Poor Joe, he makes $125K a year, but uncovered medical bills are taking $3K a month of his income now."

2)  LOL, some women just want to rule with their own career, ha.  Maybe she makes more $ than you?  

No, but close enough it doesn't matter. I only noted it because you made it sound like no woman would want to have a career. More women go to college these days than men, and as my wife once said,"I invested a lot of time and money in my career. I don't want to throw that away to watch daytime tv when I enjoy my work.". She hasn't missed any of the parenting experience since he started school due to school being the same hours she works, and her job flexibility and time off.

4)  You got me there, but you're saying $70K ain't enough for daycare with 3 kids.  Maybe if 1 or 2 are old enough to stay at home..  or different shifts/family help like you said.

Daycare is too costly to make a split of income in the 70K range pay. No point bringing home $25K and having expenses of working (clothes, transportation, lunches) if you're paying $20K in daycare.

Think DC is hard?  Try NYC (anywhere on Long Island, including Queens and Brooklyn).  The average median income of the US would hardly suffice for a "middle class" standard of living on that island, even if having only 1 kid.  One of my friends just moved the hell out of Brooklyn, to Cincinnati, and it's night-and-day for them.  

Luckly, I don't live inside of DC.  I live about 19 miles from the White House, in a sweet spot that's just the right mix of city and suburb - and it's an upscale area as well.  It's within walking distance of downtown of the city that rocks (in Montgomery County).  There are thousands of restaurants in this county alone, it's staggering just to choose where to drool at next.  Yet, so many of them are considerably more expensive than say, Madison, Wisc. 

And no, LOL - my home isn't a slum like that one in DC!  It has a double wooden deck in the back, with the top deck covering about 1000 sq. feet overlooking a forest preserve that runs down my back yard, with massive towering trees about 120-130 feet tall everywhere right above the deck (lots of leaves in the fall, lol).  There are so many parks and forest preserves everywhere around here.  There's a stream down there about 200 feet from my house and I can walk on a number of trails from there for miles in different directions - even all the way to DC down Rock Creek, from a different park, although it starts to get a bit "urban" in some places with lots of joggers and cyclists).  We have 2 walk-in closets, our master bathroom has a gigantic jacuzzi tub - and the house is in a very quiet neighborhood with some of the best schools in the country. 

Sounds like you have a really nice house, but again, I posted those two houses as illustrative of the reality you know being much different than the rest of the country and thus the people in the rest of the country need far less money to live on. You house would probably cost half what it cost you here. Yes WalMart and McDs are the same everywhere, but here you can get a very nice meal for $25.. And like I said, the kids living in places like Plover, WI aren't shopping at designer stores. Their parents don't say,"The iPhone 6+ is out, you must have it". They don't ride $800 bikes and $300 skate boards. Yet they survive fine wearing American Eagle clothes, riding $200 bikes, and texting on last gen phones. They don't have music and sports tutors, and yet play sports and in the band. They get along without karate lessons. Their lives aren't significantly diminished by this.

What is normal for you and for me because we have more disposable income isn't necessarily "better", it's just different.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/20...tates.aspx
HOWEVER-
This one shines some insight:

Perhaps, instead, the capital's egalitarian distribution of wealth should be admired, especially at a time when income inequality nationwide is at levels not seen since the 1920s. Or maybe we should just run the town like a corporation by paying President Obama $400 million per year, giving multi-million dollar bonuses to representatives for passing bills, and trimming government salaries accordingly. Then the region's median income would plummet, and no one would have cause to complain anymore about Washington's riches.

https://newrepublic.com/article/112591/w...a-actually

I don't begrudge anyone for finding a way to make more money than me, we all have the same chances.

The cost of living has been pushed up quite a bit in this area, thanks to the median (of millions of residents) being so high.  That's why $80K feels a bit "lower class" here - there's just too many damn nice restaurants everywhere that it's depressing to have to choose from the dollar menu at McDonald's, lol.

The DC metro area is a particular one - just draw a straight vertical line down the middle of the entire metro area and you get the idea.  East (about 20-25 mile radius or so) is lower-income blue-collar working class while the entire West (50+ mile radius) is largely ~$85-120K median household income. 

I really like this place here.  The middle class hovers around at $90+K (thanks in part to higher local wages), and many of us are happy here (despite the traffic, more of a crowded feel each year due to rapid population growth.  Crime is quite low in the Western half of the DC metro (and VERY low in my area).  Things cost the same at Walmart/Target/etc. (and pretty much the same at McDonald's, Taco Bell, and any other fast food restaurants) as the rest of the country, so these "standard store/restaurant prices" do not bite quite as much as they do for the poorer folks living in say, Knoxville, Tennessee with 4 kids, with an income of $45K.

New York City (Manhattan) sucks with the filthy rich snobs.  Some places around here suck in the same way.  When I drive just 2-3 miles down from my home to Montrose/Bethesda or west into Potomac, MD, I cannot help but notice a sudden change in the way people drive (rich people driving like selfish assholes, ALWAYS treating their own time like money in their wallet).  They might be rich, driving Audi R8's and 911 Turbo's - occasionally Lamborghinis and Ferraris, but they don't LOOK like happy people.  The middle class folks here LOOK happier than them.  [/Quote]

Sorry, just don't like urban areas. I live to be in woods and on water.

All that aside --- a lot of it depends on the individual and the family in particular (loans to pay off, bad or no credit, wise management and budgeting - avoiding living above one's own means, ability to save/invest in a mortgage, etc.. etc...).  No one individual/family is the same.

Lots of people are poor, and yet ironically happier than most of the rich people.  We all know that song too well.  It's just more of a financial struggle than ever to live with the financial comfort of the middle class of the 1950's, with today's national average median income (even in many of the rural areas) -- whereas Jimmy Carter said:
"Today’s middle class was my administration’s poverty level"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08...62816.html

Yes, quality food is EXPENSIVE in America.  Too many middlemen and grocery corporations and greedy farmers clawing in every penny they can, with little regard for the majority of Americans....   a lobster costs $1 at that fishing village in Maine, but costs $12 on average anywhere else, because the CEO's need up to $9 from each lobster for their own private jets.

You disagree with capitalism?

[BoFox]

Extreme capitalism, that is - untamed and unfettered, I disagree with. It's already destroying the middle class in America - and the DC metro area is the pretty much the only "buffer" left for the middle class, thanks to all of those government/tech/medical jobs (largely funded by the government altogether).

If America didn't rebuild itself during the Great Depression with millions of government-issued jobs (building the interstate roads, and so much more) America would've never recovered and never become the world's #1 superpower after WW2 that required the infrastructure in the first place.

BTW, same here - I don't like too much urbanization. That's why I chose a house in an extremely quiet neighborhood (actually much quieter here than the last house we lived in, that was on a cul-de-sac which felt like a parking lot with like 5-6 cars parking the sides), with a forest preserve right in the back yard - my oldest son loves to go hunting for all kinds of different mushroom species that unexpectedly pop up in the strangest places. There are some small waterfalls on Rock Creek (not too far from the source, that is - not too close to Silver Spring or DC where there's possible sewage leakage into it) and we go swimming in many different spots there. Almost got bitten by a copperhead swimming in the water, a foot from me, though, so now I'm paranoid.

[BenSkywalker]

Extreme capitalism, that is - untamed and unfettered, I disagree with. It's already destroying the middle class in America - and the DC metro area is the pretty much the only "buffer" left for the middle class, thanks to all of those government/tech/medical jobs (largely funded by the government altogether).

The US Economy is regulated to an obscene degree- comical in its' severity. I don't know where you get the impression that it is otherwise. DC is a massive money pit, the government takes money from hard working people all over the US to hand it out to non productive drains on society in DC. DC hurts the middle class in profound ways on many levels.

If America didn't rebuild itself during the Great Depression with millions of government-issued jobs

This is flat out wrong, WW2 pulled us out of the great depression- not government spending.

and never become the world's #1 superpower after WW2 that required the infrastructure in the first place.

Eisenhower got the interstates going- he was busy with things outside of Washington DC in the 30's and 40's

[BoFox]

No, but close enough it doesn't matter. I only noted it because you made it sound like no woman would want to have a career. More women go to college these days than men, and as my wife once said,"I invested a lot of time and money in my career. I don't want to throw that away to watch daytime tv when I enjoy my work.". She hasn't missed any of the parenting experience since he started school due to school being the same hours she works, and her job flexibility and time off.

That's pretty nice.  I was just kidding.  Who's the house maid now?  I'm kidding again - don't answer that one!

Anyhow...  In the Bronx, 29.8% (let's just say 30%) of people are below the poverty level, with a per-capita income of $18,171 (which would be a LOT lower if it were median income rather than average per-capita that is ballooned by the rich 1%).
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/36005.html
There are 1.4 million people living in the Bronx.  Not even the billionaire mayor (Michael Bloomberg, with a net worth of $41 billion) did anything substantial to help remedy that situation during his 3 consecutive terms. 

Rollo should be President just for coming up with the idea of subsidizing factory workers!

Rollo for President - fair and balanced??  Hmmm......   nah.

[BoFox]

-snip-

Yeah, should've said the highways - as many of them were turned into interstate freeways.  

The CWA created construction jobs, mainly improving or constructing buildings and bridges. It ended on March 31, 1934, after spending $200 million a month and giving jobs to four million people.
The CWA's workers laid 12 million feet of sewer pipe and built or improved 255,000 miles of roads, 40,000 schools, 3,700 playgrounds, and nearly 1,000 airports (not to mention building 250,000 outhouses still badly needed in rural America).

That was just 1 year.  Then there was the WPA for 8 years.  It prepared the US for rapid mobilization during the WW2 which would have been nigh-impossible if the gov't didn't actively lay out the groundwork during the depression. 

BTW, interesting historical tidbit during Eisenhower's times (about the area where I live in and drive on I-270)

During the Cold War, it was considered safer to remain in Rockville than to evacuate during a hypothetical nuclear attack on Washington, D.C. Bomb shelters were built, including the largest one at Glenview Mansion and 15 other locations. The I-270 highway was designated as an emergency aircraft landing strip. Two Nike missile launcher sites were located on Muddy Branch and Snouffer School Roads until the mid-1970s.

(quotes from wiki)  

I didn't say that the gov't pulled us out of the depression, mind you.  Not that, dude.  That is - the US wouldn't have risen to the top after WW2.  The gov't kept us from becoming a permanent 2nd-world nation like say, Mexico.

[BenSkywalker]

2nd-world nation like say, Mexico.

/cringe

Second world means communist bro

[BoFox]

2nd-world nation like say, Mexico.

/cringe

Second world means communist bro

/an even bigger cringe

quoted from wiki:

The concept of "Second World" was a construct of the Cold War and the term has largely fallen out of use since the revolutions of 1989, although it is still used to describe countries that are in between poverty and prosperity, many of which are now capitalist states. Subsequently, the actual meaning of the terms "First World", "Second World" and "Third World" changed from being based on political ideology to an economic definition.

[RolloTheGreat]

No, but close enough it doesn't matter. I only noted it because you made it sound like no woman would want to have a career. More women go to college these days than men, and as my wife once said,"I invested a lot of time and money in my career. I don't want to throw that away to watch daytime tv when I enjoy my work.". She hasn't missed any of the parenting experience since he started school due to school being the same hours she works, and her job flexibility and time off.

That's pretty nice.  I was just kidding.  Who's the house maid now?  I'm kidding again - don't answer that one!

Anyhow...  In the Bronx, 29.8% (let's just say 30%) of people are below the poverty level, with a per-capita income of $18,171 (which would be a LOT lower if it were median income rather than average per-capita that is ballooned by the rich 1%).
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/36005.html
There are 1.4 million people living in the Bronx.  Not even the billionaire mayor (Michael Bloomberg, with a net worth of $41 billion) did anything substantial to help remedy that situation during his 3 consecutive terms. 

Rollo should be President just for coming up with the idea of subsidizing factory workers!

Rollo for President - fair and balanced??  Hmmm......   nah.

Nah, you're not kidding. You're passive aggressive and think "Man must earn money, woman clean house! Ugghh!".

Which is OK, we all spend our lives rationalizing the choices we've made to some extent. Like everything else, my wife and I split household chores.

[SteelCrysis]

BoFox isn't passive aggressive, he is a full-on neanderthal in case his views on religion, evolution, homosexuality and women haven't clued you in on that already!

He should move to Australia and work for our ex-Prime Minister Tony Abbot, they would would get on real well together......

No, he isn't. He can make a good argument and actually listen to others, unlike Ben.

[RolloTheGreat]

BoFox isn't passive aggressive, he is a full-on neanderthal in case his views on religion, evolution, homosexuality and women haven't clued you in on that already!

He should move to Australia and work for our ex-Prime Minister Tony Abbot, they would would get on real well together......

No, he isn't. He can make a good argument and actually listen to others, unlike Ben.

I wasn't trying to insult BoFox, he's like pretty much everyone else in life. (myself included)

He worked and sacrificed to train for whatever it is he does, and I'm sure he worked and sacrificed to get to his level of success. I know lots of guys like him that work more hours than me and do more stressful work so their wives can stay home. (or did at one point) And they tell themselves,"This is as it should be, my wife never had to work and my kids never knew daycare. That's my reward for doing this, and the lifestyle for the kids." (not to mention with 5 kids, not a lot of people even make enough to make work pay off very well)

To him, I'm probably not "poor", but he probably thinks of me as "lazy" and sacrificing my wife's daytime tv time and my son's first 4 years hanging out at a neighbor's house the reward for my sloth.

I'm pretty comfortable with how it all turned out, so I can handle guys who made different choices making little jabs. At the end of the day I'm still living the life I want to be living, and that's what matters to me.

[BoFox]

Thanks SteelCrysis, appreciate it bro.  This G-pisstard... even a neanderthal like me doesn't like the smell of piss!

To him, I'm probably not "poor", but he probably thinks of me as "lazy" and sacrificing my wife's daytime tv time and my son's first 4 years hanging out at a neighbor's house the reward for my sloth.

I'm pretty comfortable with how it all turned out, so I can handle guys who made different choices making little jabs. At the end of the day I'm still living the life I want to be living, and that's what matters to me.

Hey!!!  You got it wrong - I don't think of you like that.  I didn't even make any judgments or assumptions of you.  I think you're probably the top 5% awesome guys who know how to enjoy life in Wisconsin!

[RolloTheGreat]

Thanks SteelCrysis, appreciate it bro.  This G-pisstard... even a neanderthal like me doesn't like the smell of piss!

To him, I'm probably not "poor", but he probably thinks of me as "lazy" and sacrificing my wife's daytime tv time and my son's first 4 years hanging out at a neighbor's house the reward for my sloth.

I'm pretty comfortable with how it all turned out, so I can handle guys who made different choices making little jabs. At the end of the day I'm still living the life I want to be living, and that's what matters to me.

Hey!!!  You got it wrong - I don't think of you like that.  I didn't even make any judgments or assumptions of you.  I think you're probably the top 5% awesome guys who know how to enjoy life in Wisconsin!

Heh, well, I'm probably predisposed to make that assumption, because I've asked my wife about 20X over the years if she wanted to stop working, or if I should apply for jobs where I might make more jing. We're all conditioned to think that's what family life is- dad works himself to early grave, mom relaxes.

Usually she just looks at me and says,"Really? This again?! Don't care what you make, I'm going to be doing what I'm doing.".

[BenSkywalker]

/an even bigger cringe

WTF.... why are you damn kids changing the meaning of words..... get off my lawn you snot nosed punk

No, he isn't. He can make a good argument and actually listen to others, unlike Ben.

Kiddie porn versus the poison control center. Should they be treated equally?

I don't listen to four year olds try and explain general relativity either. You have argued that people who don't support the NSA's mass spying should be executed and that the 1st amendment should be repealed. North Korea really sounds like where you belong. They are actually doing the things you want, why don't you move there?

[SteelCrysis]

Kiddie porn versus the poison control center. Should they be treated equally?

LOL if you think net neutrality actually makes illegal activity easier to do without getting caught,.

I don't listen to four year olds try and explain general relativity either. You have argued that people who don't support the NSA's mass spying should be executed and that the 1st amendment should be repealed. North Korea really sounds like where you belong. They are actually doing the things you want, why don't you move there?

People who advocate privacy should be executed, as should anyone else who advocates that citizens, not laws, make law enforcement more difficult. Laws should make it more difficult to prosecute for the sake of the people. That's the role of laws that protect everyone, not the role of insanely selfish people.

The 1st Amendment is not a sacred cow, and if the future gets bad enough, we should repeal it and replace it with an amendment that places whatever restrictions on freedom of speech that are required.

[RolloTheGreat]

Kiddie porn versus the poison control center. Should they be treated equally?

LOL if you think net neutrality actually makes illegal activity easier to do without getting caught,.

I don't listen to four year olds try and explain general relativity either. You have argued that people who don't support the NSA's mass spying should be executed and that the 1st amendment should be repealed. North Korea really sounds like where you belong. They are actually doing the things you want, why don't you move there?

People who advocate privacy should be executed, as should anyone else who advocates that citizens, not laws, make law enforcement more difficult. Laws should make it more difficult to prosecute for the sake of the people. That's the role of laws that protect everyone, not the role of insanely selfish people.

The 1st Amendment is not a sacred cow, and if the future gets bad enough, we should repeal it and replace it with an amendment that places whatever restrictions on freedom of speech that are required.

Look, I agree with you that we need tougher punishments, and that some freedoms have to be sacrificed to try to catch people like kid porn traders, school shooters, and "radicalized jihaders" or whatever the fuck they are.

Not a doubt in my mind. The people are out there, they endanger citizens, and they're probably not going to wear "I'm a dangerous nut job" t shirts.

BUT the 1st Amendment is pretty much the foundation of this country, and we are a democracy.

Frankly, I don't think most people are smart enough to vote, and I don't think most of those who are take the time to study the issues necessary to make a good choice.

We're a pop culture, sound byte society that thinks posting a serious looking picture of Obama with "Because numbers" photoshopped on it along with some stats that have as much to do with Obama as they do with Rollo constitutes political commentary.

But that is the system and unless we're going to go to an intellectual elite oligarchy, Scooter, Jim Bob, and Fluffy Roundheels all get their say in the process.

We don't kill people here for advocating a position, and if we ever do, I'll be posting from somewhere that does not.

[SteelCrysis]

I understand, and as I've said elsewhere, I don't think we currently need to restrict freedom of speech any further That's why I said if. Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

[BenSkywalker]

Look, I agree with you that we need tougher punishments, and that some freedoms have to be sacrificed to try to catch people like kid porn traders, school shooters, and "radicalized jihaders" or whatever the fuck they are.

Heh, this is the great thing about watching Steel's mind work- he thinks child pornographers have an inherent right to have their data treated equally to anyone else, believes Tor should have a legally protected status, but thinks people who oppose the NSA's mass surveillance should be executed.

The level of hypocrisy is utterly shocking- it appears close to sociopath level with how self centered his world view is.

[SteelCrysis]

Heh, this is the great thing about watching Steel's mind work- he thinks child pornographers have an inherent right to have their data treated equally to anyone else,

Why not? It won't make their crimes easier.

believes Tor should have a legally protected status,

Despite the fact that I never said that previously, you are right–despite what I said earlier, I now believe Tor does have a place for corporate whistleblowing. That's because corporations aren't people or the government. This place can be met with authorized Tor nodes that corporate whistleblowers can access through some government program.

but thinks people who oppose the NSA's mass surveillance should be executed.

I've changed my mind on executing them (see my NSA thread), and I thank Rollo for bringing me to change my mind, because I respect him and don't want this country to become something he can't live in.

The level of hypocrisy is utterly shocking- it appears close to sociopath level with how self centered his world view is.

Considering your jackassery and just how incredibly wrong you can be, you would be a better person as a sociopath.

[ocre]

Nah, you're not kidding. You're passive aggressive and think "Man must earn money, woman clean house! Ugghh!".

Which is OK, we all spend our lives rationalizing the choices we've made to some extent. Like everything else, my wife and I split household chores.

BoFox has his own ideas and loves to share them but just because you may be challenged by him, dont take that as an attack.
Actually, its his backwards way of trying to really see other people's positions. It is not from a higher point of judgemental prejudiced. I think he is most often misunderstood. Truly he is a very great guy, unique and not at all what he can be made out to be. He gets attacked and misinterpreted because he shared his spiritual side but I think you guys are too quick to put him in this box. Honestly, I believe the prejudice is towards him in many cases.......the irony in that.


I think if you read his last post towards gstanford, bofox is not a passive aggressive kind of guy. He is pretty direct if you get on his bad side.

[RolloTheGreat]

Nah, you're not kidding. You're passive aggressive and think "Man must earn money, woman clean house! Ugghh!".

Which is OK, we all spend our lives rationalizing the choices we've made to some extent. Like everything else, my wife and I split household chores.

BoFox has his own ideas and loves to share them but just because you may be challenged by him, dont take that as an attack.  
Actually, its his backwards way of trying to really see other people's positions.  It is not from a higher point of judgemental prejudiced.  I think he is most often misunderstood.  Truly he is a very great guy, unique and not at all what he can be made out to be.  He gets attacked and misinterpreted because he shared his spiritual side but I think you guys are too quick to put him in this box.  Honestly, I believe the prejudice is towards him in many cases.......the irony in that.


I think if you read his last post towards gstanford, bofox is not a passive aggressive kind of guy.  He is pretty direct if you get on his bad side.

No prejudice toward BoFox on my end, I think like him on some things, and know a lot of guys who think like him on others.

BoFox is a real citizen- pays his own bills and makes his own way in the world. That puts him in the "good folks" category by itself.

I don't care too much if he thinks the 70K families are broke, I was just pointing out it depends where you live if that is broke.

Likewise, I don't care if he thinks women shouldn't work, some apparently like being part of the economy/adult world.

Not to mention I don't blame anyone for wanting to be independent in the world. Have known a fair number of divorced women who fall on hard times. Women like my wife, some of my friend's wives, would go buy their own house if we tried to cheat on them or treat them badly in any way. Something to be said being able to make your own way in the world.

[dmcowen674]

That's because corporations aren't people or the government. 

I don't know where you've been for nearly 10 years but Corporations were declared people by Federal U.S. law in 2006.

[BoFox]

Nah, you're not kidding. You're passive aggressive and think "Man must earn money, woman clean house! Ugghh!".

Which is OK, we all spend our lives rationalizing the choices we've made to some extent. Like everything else, my wife and I split household chores.

BoFox has his own ideas and loves to share them but just because you may be challenged by him, dont take that as an attack.  
Actually, its his backwards way of trying to really see other people's positions.  It is not from a higher point of judgemental prejudiced.  I think he is most often misunderstood.  Truly he is a very great guy, unique and not at all what he can be made out to be.  He gets attacked and misinterpreted because he shared his spiritual side but I think you guys are too quick to put him in this box.  Honestly, I believe the prejudice is towards him in many cases.......the irony in that.


I think if you read his last post towards gstanford, bofox is not a passive aggressive kind of guy.  He is pretty direct if you get on his bad side.

What I highlighted above coupled with his own beliefs and values is the problem with BoFox (and most religious types for that matter).  His imagination, which runs wild.  He doesn't see people for what they are, just what he imagines they are, then he imposes his fundamentalist, conservative christian values against what he has imagined them to be and comes here to spew the crap he has imagined into the forums.

He (and most religious types) lives in his own little fantasy world where everyone has to live by his rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxwqBJLU8A

 That's quite a fantasy of yours, Gstan!  Just because I'm a Christian does not mean that I believe that nobody has a right to admit their own beliefs, unlike you - who believes that the First Amendment should not exist as to the freedom of religion/belief. 

Sorry, but you lose.     While I fly like an ! 



Now, let's keep it to topic - rather than spewing anti-First Amendment crap here in the United States!  Just kidding.

[BoFox]

I sure as hell haven't tried to force my belief onto you - you were the one attacking my religious beliefs first and foremost. 

For the record, you're bringing my religion up again (mocking it, or whatever) - rearing your ugly head once again, like always.  Religious slurs like this actually gets you banned from XboxLive and PSN, you ducking fimwit!




There you go, rearing your ugly head out of the snake's ass!

[BoFox]

If you don't want your religious views mocked you should not unnecessarily include them in your posts or parade them in your signature

If you were 6 years old, your window-breaking tantrums would've been excusable.  Now, you breed of viper, I didn't say I don't want them mocked - just said that you couldn't help but screech and hiss like a cat at the dog that struts by, believing that dogs shouldn't be pets among them.

http://www.wikihow.com/Get-Your-Cat-to-Stop-Hissing

Nah, you'll just keep on bringing it up anyway, and who's admitting to be the wrongdoer in the above quote?  You gotta spank your ugly reared head so that it looks redder and more scary!