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High wages for unskilled labor, attn GStan
#1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...76e718c5fd

It appears that exactly what I said would happen is happening.

Less hours, less jobs, senior staff fired to make way for cheaper new staff.

As I said back then, the only people who don't pay are the ones who don't have to: the people who make the decisions. If they can take it out of their own stack of money or ours, "ours" will always be the stack it comes from.

I'd also note the "pay everyone $70K" movement you predicted would happen back in 2015 never did. The one company made that move, and that's the last I've heard of it. I seem to recall me saying something like "I bet in a few years there won't be 5 (10?) more companies that join him"?

In any case, hope all is well with you GStan.

FWIW, I wish your labor movement ideas could work. I consider lack of money the cause of most of the problems in the world. (people who have enough aren't usually robbing others, escaping bleak reality with booze and dope, getting divorced because they're tired of arguing about money, etc)
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#2
I don't think enough time has passed to see the final result yet.

Do you honestly believe minimum wage should still be $7.25 an hour?
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#3
(06-27-2017, 05:26 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: As I said back then, the only people who don't pay are the ones who don't have to: the people who make the decisions. If they can take it out of their own stack of money or ours, "ours" will always be the stack it comes from.
...
FWIW, I wish your labor movement ideas could work. I consider lack of money the cause of most of the problems in the world. (people who have enough aren't usually robbing others, escaping bleak reality with booze and dope, getting divorced because they're tired of arguing about money, etc)
Then start supporting some variation of basic income, for the reason in the first part of my quote of you.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#4
(06-27-2017, 08:58 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I don't think enough time has passed to see the final result yet.

Do you honestly believe minimum wage should still be $7.25 an hour?

I honestly believe that the minimum wage can't become $15/hour because this will result in:
A. $15/hour becoming worth $7.25 an hour due to resulting inflation.
B. Everyone up the line from minimum wage would rightfully demand more wages, resulting in more inflation.

The ONLY way this could work is if the rich agreed to take more money out of their assets to pay the poor and no one else asked for raises above the minimum wage McJobbers.

There aren't enough rich associated with minimum wage jobs to do this, so it would just turn into a shell game of money.
Reply
#5
(06-27-2017, 09:23 PM)SteelCrysis Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 05:26 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: As I said back then, the only people who don't pay are the ones who don't have to: the people who make the decisions. If they can take it out of their own stack of money or ours, "ours" will always be the stack it comes from.
...
FWIW, I wish your labor movement ideas could work. I consider lack of money the cause of most of the problems in the world. (people who have enough aren't usually robbing others, escaping bleak reality with booze and dope, getting divorced because they're tired of arguing about money, etc)
Then start supporting some variation of basic income, for the reason in the first part of my quote of you.

My support is irrelevant. I employ no one.

What I think people need to do is figure out ways to make themselves valuable, because employers will never pay them just for being good guys.
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#6
(06-27-2017, 11:16 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 08:58 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I don't think enough time has passed to see the final result yet.

Do you honestly believe minimum wage should still be $7.25 an hour?

I honestly believe that the minimum wage can't become $15/hour because this will result in:
A. $15/hour becoming worth $7.25 an hour due to resulting inflation.
B. Everyone up the line from minimum wage would rightfully demand more wages, resulting in more inflation.

The ONLY way this could work is if the rich agreed to take more money out of their assets to pay the poor and no one else asked for raises above the minimum wage McJobbers.

There aren't enough rich associated with minimum wage jobs to do this, so it would just turn into a shell game of money.

You didn't answer the question.

Minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 since 1999 and obviously has not kept pace with any kind of inflation, you believe this is the right thing to keep stuck at $7.25?
Reply
#7
(06-28-2017, 02:47 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 11:16 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 08:58 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I don't think enough time has passed to see the final result yet.

Do you honestly believe minimum wage should still be $7.25 an hour?

I honestly believe that the minimum wage can't become $15/hour because this will result in:
A. $15/hour becoming worth $7.25 an hour due to resulting inflation.
B. Everyone up the line from minimum wage would rightfully demand more wages, resulting in more inflation.

The ONLY way this could work is if the rich agreed to take more money out of their assets to pay the poor and no one else asked for raises above the minimum wage McJobbers.

There aren't enough rich associated with minimum wage jobs to do this, so it would just turn into a shell game of money.

You didn't answer the question.

Minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 since 1999 and obviously has not kept pace with any kind of inflation, you believe this is the right thing to keep stuck at $7.25?

Yes.

Wages have not kept up with inflation for everyone, not just Joe Pizzapie.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-decades/

I understand that there are a lot of other factors in play and that these folks getting bumped to $15 would be a domino effect that ends in either their $15 being worth $7.25, or everyone else's wages being worth much less.

If you're a AP clerk using software to cut checks for $15 an hour, or a cutomer service rep making $15 an hour to interact with clients and enter their orders into a database and maintain their accounts, how will you feel knowing the folks that flip the burgers and put the boxes on the shelves make the same as you now? Any of them going to want a raise?

OK, so they get a bump to $25/hour to maintain parity of wages with their skill set.

Uh oh. Now the people who made $25-$30 an hour (most of the people in the US with degrees, skilled labor) want a raise as well because they shouldn't be making the same as the 2 year degree, semi skilled labor folks.

Now that they are in the $40-$50 range, the people making $80-$100K already will probably want more.

And so on.

Yay! Lots more money in circulation, everyone got a big raise! Everyone can buy all kinds of stuff now, want and scarcity have ended!

Nope.

Bigger supply of money means higher prices- always has, always will.

Higher wages paid means higher prices for goods and services if the owners and corps wish to maintain their income level. Always has, always will.

So prices rise and everyone's money is worth what it used to be and now Joe Pizzapie starts striking for $25/hour because his $15 minimum hasn't kept up with inflation.

Sooner of later we live in a banana republic where a loaf of bread is $100..

That is the nature of the economy. If it's not stratified with wealth concentrated at top, money is worthless and people lose reason to strive for it.
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#8
If you don't think raising the minimum would cause an upward cascade of wages, look at what happened at the company foolish enough to try this:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/t...?a=viewall

Quote:Aside from a few lost clients, Price’s minimum wage policy had another unintended consequence: Gravity Payments lost two of their rock star employees (possibly more by now, but this was during the summer of 2015, in the direct aftermath of Price’s decision), both of whom reportedly thought it was unfair that other employees (those making less than $70,000) were getting big raises, while not necessarily contributing as much to the company’s success. That’s a completely fair assessment on the part of those employees, and they evidently felt that their value to the company had been diminished.

There will never be a group of people who think, "We should all make the same! I may have a master's degree in law, Sharon is a CPA, the HR manager has a couple degrees and professional certificates, but we should be paid the same as the folks who deliver us mail and vacuum the floors! We're all equal!"

It's counter intuitive to think people would work harder to obtain skills and then work for similar wages. We'd all just flip burgers and sweep floors for $70K.
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#9
(06-28-2017, 08:28 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-28-2017, 02:47 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 11:16 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 08:58 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I don't think enough time has passed to see the final result yet.

Do you honestly believe minimum wage should still be $7.25 an hour?

I honestly believe that the minimum wage can't become $15/hour because this will result in:
A. $15/hour becoming worth $7.25 an hour due to resulting inflation.
B. Everyone up the line from minimum wage would rightfully demand more wages, resulting in more inflation.

The ONLY way this could work is if the rich agreed to take more money out of their assets to pay the poor and no one else asked for raises above the minimum wage McJobbers.

There aren't enough rich associated with minimum wage jobs to do this, so it would just turn into a shell game of money.

You didn't answer the question.

Minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 since 1999 and obviously has not kept pace with any kind of inflation, you believe this is the right thing to keep stuck at $7.25?

Yes.

Wages have not kept up with inflation for everyone, not just Joe Pizzapie.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-decades/

I understand that there are a lot of other factors in play and that these folks getting bumped to $15 would be a domino effect that ends in either their $15 being worth $7.25, or everyone else's wages being worth much less.

If you're a AP clerk using software to cut checks for $15 an hour, or a cutomer service rep making $15 an hour to interact with clients and enter their orders into a database and maintain their accounts, how will you feel knowing the folks that flip the burgers and put the boxes on the shelves make the same as you now? Any of them going to want a raise?

OK, so they get a bump to $25/hour to maintain parity of wages with their skill set.

Uh oh. Now the people who made $25-$30 an hour (most of the people in the US with degrees, skilled labor) want a raise as well because they shouldn't be making the same as the 2 year degree, semi skilled labor folks.

Now that they are in the $40-$50 range, the people making $80-$100K already will probably want more.

And so on.

Yay! Lots more money in circulation, everyone got a big raise! Everyone can buy all kinds of stuff now, want and scarcity have ended!

Nope.

Bigger supply of money means higher prices- always has, always will.

Higher wages paid means higher prices for goods and services if the owners and corps wish to maintain their income level. Always has, always will.

So prices rise and everyone's money is worth what it used to be and now Joe Pizzapie starts striking for $25/hour because his $15 minimum hasn't kept up with inflation.

Sooner of later we live in a banana republic where a loaf of bread is $100..

That is the nature of the economy. If it's not stratified with wealth concentrated at top, money is worthless and people lose reason to strive for it.

Not true - nearly, not all of course, jobs except for those at minimum wage jobs get a COLA (Cost of Living Adjustment) increase of 3% once a year.

You always post in extremes and use meaningless links to justify your skewed extreme ramblings.

Of course the $15hr clerk doesn't expect a burger flipper to be at $15hr as well but would expect minimum wage to at least to be at $10hr by now.
Keeping it stuck for decades is an insult to all of us in civilized society. There is your answer, those keeping the wage stuck at $7.25 cannot be considered civilized anymore, they are disgusting and those that support them as well.
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#10
(06-28-2017, 07:06 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(06-28-2017, 08:28 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-28-2017, 02:47 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 11:16 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-27-2017, 08:58 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I don't think enough time has passed to see the final result yet.

Do you honestly believe minimum wage should still be $7.25 an hour?

I honestly believe that the minimum wage can't become $15/hour because this will result in:
A. $15/hour becoming worth $7.25 an hour due to resulting inflation.
B. Everyone up the line from minimum wage would rightfully demand more wages, resulting in more inflation.

The ONLY way this could work is if the rich agreed to take more money out of their assets to pay the poor and no one else asked for raises above the minimum wage McJobbers.

There aren't enough rich associated with minimum wage jobs to do this, so it would just turn into a shell game of money.

You didn't answer the question.

Minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 since 1999 and obviously has not kept pace with any kind of inflation, you believe this is the right thing to keep stuck at $7.25?

Yes.

Wages have not kept up with inflation for everyone, not just Joe Pizzapie.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-decades/

I understand that there are a lot of other factors in play and that these folks getting bumped to $15 would be a domino effect that ends in either their $15 being worth $7.25, or everyone else's wages being worth much less.

If you're a AP clerk using software to cut checks for $15 an hour, or a cutomer service rep making $15 an hour to interact with clients and enter their orders into a database and maintain their accounts, how will you feel knowing the folks that flip the burgers and put the boxes on the shelves make the same as you now? Any of them going to want a raise?

OK, so they get a bump to $25/hour to maintain parity of wages with their skill set.

Uh oh. Now the people who made $25-$30 an hour (most of the people in the US with degrees, skilled labor) want a raise as well because they shouldn't be making the same as the 2 year degree, semi skilled labor folks.

Now that they are in the $40-$50 range, the people making $80-$100K already will probably want more.

And so on.

Yay! Lots more money in circulation, everyone got a big raise! Everyone can buy all kinds of stuff now, want and scarcity have ended!

Nope.

Bigger supply of money means higher prices- always has, always will.

Higher wages paid means higher prices for goods and services if the owners and corps wish to maintain their income level. Always has, always will.

So prices rise and everyone's money is worth what it used to be and now Joe Pizzapie starts striking for $25/hour because his $15 minimum hasn't kept up with inflation.

Sooner of later we live in a banana republic where a loaf of bread is $100..

That is the nature of the economy. If it's not stratified with wealth concentrated at top, money is worthless and people lose reason to strive for it.

Not true - nearly, not all of course, jobs except for those at minimum wage jobs get a COLA (Cost of Living Adjustment) increase of 3% once a year.

You always post in extremes and use meaningless links to justify your skewed extreme ramblings.

Of course the $15hr clerk doesn't expect a burger flipper to be at $15hr as well but would expect minimum wage to at least to be at $10hr by now.
Keeping it stuck for decades is an insult to all of us in civilized society. There is your answer, those keeping the wage stuck at $7.25 cannot be considered civilized anymore, they are disgusting and those that support them as well.

On e thing you forget is that the people are making minimum wage are already "raised" by society's safety nets. They're eligible for various social programs like food stamp, assisted housing, etc.. So while it does indeed suck trying to live on the poverty level wages, they're not totally abandoned. (and may even be worse off at $15/hour without the programs they would no longer qualify for)

In general there aren't a lot of people making minimum wage, mostly kids. Companies pay your $10 or close to that for fast food to adults.

My ramblings aren't extreme. If you think they can hike minimum to $15, or even $10, and it doesn't impact inflation we'll have to agree to disagree.
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#11
Come on, you really can't believe it's just kids stuck in the minimum wage jobs.

You really think $3 would break the Companies, wow.
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#12
(06-28-2017, 11:31 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: Come on, you really can't believe it's just kids stuck in the minimum wage jobs.

You really think $3 would break the Companies, wow.

You also forget that in Seattle the experiment has proven less jobs at this end. People would rather work than not.

And you forget a lot of minimum wage is small business. If you're a restaurant owner or retailer who takes home $100K a year, yes, your $3 would amount to over $30K a year out of that guy's pocket.

Last, even big companies go bankrupt all the time and labor is usually their biggest expense.

Your position is rooted in the fantasy world where all the bosses are rich fatcats socking away gazillions laughing at the minimum wage schmucks. (that exists, but is not universal)
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#13
Seattle went extreme doubling.

Being stuck at $7.25 is the fantasy world of people like you that support stagnating the minimum at the same level for so long.

If a Company is going to go bankrupt over $3 then they don't have a viable business to begin with and should shut down and certainly not have any employees.
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#14
(06-29-2017, 12:10 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: Seattle went extreme doubling.

Being stuck at $7.25 is the fantasy world of people like you that support stagnating the minimum at the same level for so long.

If a Company is going to go bankrupt over $3 then they don't have a viable business to begin with and should shut down and certainly not have any employees.

Sorry, but you're just wrong and your position is even more offensive than mine.

Who are you to say a small business person should not be allowed to pay minimum wage while they grow their business? Big corps don't spring out of the ground with tons of operating cash.

What gives you the right to say the people who choose to work for minimum wage shouldn't have jobs?
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#15
Sucks to be an American I guess.

Here in Australia the minimum wage is $36K per annum or $18.46 per hour.

Our age pension pays nearly the same rate.

America, land of the free enslaved.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#16
(06-29-2017, 07:41 PM)gstanford Wrote: Sucks to be an American I guess.

Here in Australia the minimum wage is $36K per annum or $18.46 per hour.

Our age pension pays nearly the same rate.

America, land of the free enslaved.

I just bought a new "land locomotive" as you call them for over $40K after I talked them down a bunch. How does that $36K play into the cost of living in the modern world, especially in a place where a ton of your stuff is imported and costly?

Our system isn't perfect, but everyone willing to work has opportunity to "get rich". I think we have that as much or more than any place.

Our ways don't coddle those who don't want to work, but they can reward those who do very well. (and not bleed them for the slackers to the extent the socialist nations do)
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#17
You can easily live on 36K here. Prices can be a ripoff at times but that has more to do with greedy merchants than remoteness. The worst thing price wise is housing.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#18
(06-29-2017, 11:50 PM)gstanford Wrote: You can easily live on 36K here.  Prices can be a ripoff at times but that has more to do with greedy merchants than remoteness.  The worst thing price wise is housing.

You can live on $36K here too, a lot of single people do. If you get two people making that, it's middle class family income outside of large metro areas.

I don't see how small business people pay $36K there, that would be like two minimum wage employees here.
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#19
It's because in Australia we still know that societies are made up of communities of people, not selfish indviduals out to feather their own nest at the expense of everyone else. You yankees are welcome to that.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#20
(06-29-2017, 11:14 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(06-29-2017, 07:41 PM)gstanford Wrote: Sucks to be an American I guess.

Here in Australia the minimum wage is $36K per annum or $18.46 per hour.

Our age pension pays nearly the same rate.

America, land of the free enslaved.

I just bought a new "land locomotive" as you call them for over $40K after I talked them down a bunch. How does that $36K play into the cost of living in the modern world, especially in a place where a ton of your stuff is imported and costly?

Our system isn't perfect, but everyone willing to work has opportunity to "get rich". I think we have that as much or more than any place.

Our ways don't coddle those who don't want to work, but they can reward those who do very well. (and not bleed them for the slackers to the extent the socialist nations do)
The problem is that it leads to somewhat of a Caste system whereby the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Good luck to anyone living in the lower class in the USA in terms of getting a higher education.  There are so many barriers.  Here in Canada we have started making higher education completely free in places for certain income levels.  Our taxes are higher here but not by that much, plus we have universal health care which removes a huge burden off employers and counteracts the higher taxes to a large extent.

I totally hear your point regarding successful people paying too much in taxes.  However heath care and education are very important to me, along with infrastructure.  They are for the common good.  A lot of Liberal spending and waste drives me crazy, however I really do feel that we need to have basic supports in place for *everyone*, rich or poor.  The thing is, Conservatives waste just as much money as the Liberals, just in different ways.  The Conservatives tend to give handouts to big business and corporations, along with massively wasteful military spending.  At least when the Liberals do it their heart is in the right place.

We all think differently.  I always try to vote based on what's best for my country.  Not some blind ideology.  I have a good look at the party leaders.  Here in Canada our economy is revving right up, it sounds like things could get really good here in short order.  I credit a lot of that to Trudeau.  I think he has done an outstanding job.

By the way, Rollo, welcome back (I think). Please behave.
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#21
(07-01-2017, 02:13 AM)SickBeast Wrote: By the way, Rollo, welcome back (I think).  Please behave.

I don't know that I'm "back", I just came across an article that supported a position I had put forth here. (that you will not see business owners take additional wages out of their pockets, the workers will pay for whatever "raise" they get with loss of hours/benefits/both)

I post on other forums where oddly enough members don't try to tell each other how they should post. As I come to the forums to chat rather than ask for commentary on my etiquette, it's a system that has been working well.

And it's happy days at Casa del Rollo these days: transitioned from 60% home office to 100% home office earlier this year. So:





Cool
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#22
*snort* "Casa del Rollo" eh?! Talk about an ego the size of Jupiter....

I bet there is a gigantic portrait of smirking Martin Shkreli in the palace somewhere, it bet Trollo admires him...
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#23
(07-01-2017, 09:57 PM)gstanford Wrote: *snort* "Casa del Rollo" eh?!  Talk about an ego the size of Jupiter....

I bet there is a gigantic portrait of smirking Martin Shkreli in the palace somewhere, it bet Trollo admires him...

Its a figure of speech here? "House of + your name"?
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#24
It's a figure of speech in Europe too where it usually applied to royalty and nobility. Common folk don't use it.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#25
(07-01-2017, 11:42 PM)gstanford Wrote: It's a figure of speech in Europe too where it usually applied to royalty and nobility.  Common folk don't use it.

Smile

No nobility implied here.

Still earning my living like everyone else, just doing it at home while looking at my koi instead of the business park. Yesterday I fed a stray cat that showed up to try and figure out how to get the koi. Also saw two large frogs hop out of the flowers to sun themselves on rocks by waterfall, a young rabbit, a chipmunk, a hummingbird, and several colorful songbirds.

Beats watching the business park power walkers, this is definitely more relaxing.
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#26
People may point out the misinformation you post here but there is no censorship like most sites.
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#27
Of Course here is an article countering your post of the University of Washington study:

Here's what's wrong with a University of Washington study that found it hurt low-wage workers


6-27-2017

It’s not entirely clear why the University of Washington team gets such a weird result — since their data isn’t public, we can’t check it — but it’s worth noting at least two important issues with their study.

First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald’s don’t. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle’s minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones

Second, the University of Washington team does not present enough data for us to assess the validity of its “synthetic control” in Washington — that is, the set of areas to which they compare the results they observe in Seattle. The Seattle labor market is not necessarily comparable to other labor markets in the state, and given some of the researchers’ implausible results, it’s hard to believe the comparison group they chose is an appropriate one.

The Berkeley researchers take a better approach. They construct the synthetic control in their study using an algorithm that matches Seattle with counties across the United States that are similar in terms of population size and a variety of economic characteristics. They use a publicly available data set — the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages (QCEW) — and include multi-location businesses in their analysis.

That doesn’t mean that nobody in Seattle will ever lose a job, of course, or that the University of Washington team’s research doesn’t merit further exploration. But it does mean that the Seattle minimum wage increase, like every minimum wage increase in American history, has lifted the wages of low-wage workers and been perfectly fine for the economy. Until you start seeing low-income people in Seattle and around the country taking to the streets to demand lower minimum wages, don’t listen to anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.
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#28
You have an "interesting" way of looking at things Dave.

Corps are "teh devil from HE!!" when it suits your argument, but the only businesses in the country deserving of existence when it doesn't.

Your own article states that 60% of the workers in Seattle do not work for large corps, more than half. Again, I find your ideas offensive in that:
A. Small business and the right to become your own boss and a business owner is the foundation on which our economy was created. There is no denying this- economic opportunity for all and small business employment has been a cornerstone of our society and way of life.
B. These small businesses provide opportunity for many would not have a job otherwise. Corporations only serve markets they believe they can use economies of scale on to amass the large profits. To deny people the right to work for people like Apoppin at his sign business, their local florist, butcher, corner store, etc is repulsive.
C. Not everyone NEEDS high wages and benefits. I don't care if my son even works. He has our insurance, and I'd rather he spend his free time with his friends or girlfriend. He works part time because he wants to earn some of what he spends. I know retired people who work just to have something to do.

Again, while I'm sure you're a great modem tech, you're in no way shape or form qualified to be an architect of economies. Nor am I, but at least I understand there are other factors in play than "stick it to the rich guys".

Something you will never, ever do by the way.
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#29
Besides being offensive, your position is just indefensible. Here's why:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_McDonald%27s

Quote: In 1937, their father Patrick McDonald opened "The Airdrome", a food stand, on Huntington Drive (Route 66) near the Monrovia Airport in Monrovia, California[2] with hot dogs being one of the first item sold. Hamburgers were later added to the menu at a cost of ten cents with all-you-can-drink orange juice at five cents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starbucks

Quote:The first Starbucks opened in Seattle, Washington, on March 31, 1971,[14] by three partners who met while they were students at the University of San Francisco:[15] English teacher Jerry Baldwin, history teacher Zev Siegl, and writer Gordon Bowker were inspired to sell high-quality coffee beans and equipment by coffee roasting entrepreneur Alfred Peet after he taught them his style of roasting beans

This is what America is, and always has been, all about Dave.

Ordinary people like you and me seeing a market for a product or service and taking a risk to become successful.

When you more than double the minimum wage you make that opportunity far more cost prohibitive.

You deserve the opportunity to walk dogs for people or clean their offices while you build a book of business large enough to hire others to help you, and then finally do it for you, hopefully becoming a big business like McDonalds or Starbucks. Both businesses started by regular guys like you, now cited as an example of businesses who can afford to pay the higher wages. (although I note without data on whether their labor hours have decreased in the wake of this wage)
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#30
Don't feel bad Dave.

Most people can't see anything other than their own perspective so that makes you normal.
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#31
Greg I told you that you were tempting fate by baiting Rollo. Now we have to listen to more right wing propaganda.
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#32
(07-03-2017, 01:56 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Greg I told you that you were tempting fate by baiting Rollo. Now we have to listen to more right wing propaganda.

Shrewd analysis. Rolleyes

1. I voted for Hillary and will vote straight ticket Democrat while Trump is in office. I'm not exactly "right wing" with my belief in separation of church and state, women's right to choose, current immigration laws were fine, no travel bans, no religion in public schools, gay rights, minority rights, women's rights.

2. How did GStan "bait" me? I posted this because I saw an article that lent credence to a point I had made.
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#33
Oh he baited you. I thought you lurked all these forums, particularly BTR. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. You have a right wing agenda.
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#34
(07-03-2017, 04:45 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh he baited you. I thought you lurked all these forums, particularly BTR. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. You have a right wing agenda.

Rolleyes

I've been called that a few times over the years, in forums and IRL.

Nonetheless, you need to take off the tinfoil hat.

I've seen you and GStan post a few times about me in the last few months over at BabbleTechReviews. That kind of thing doesn't motivate me, and I don't care what you two are up to. I hope you're living life on your own terms and enjoying it. I saw you bought a big tv, congrats, good purchase IMO.

The fact that I read that forum and this one at times has nothing to do with advancing an agenda- there's no one to advance it to. If I truly wanted to advance an agenda, I'd do it on the forums I post on that have more than a couple members?

If I were to try and advance ANY political agenda, this would be the one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican

(one of my conservative friends branded me this) I've actually been unfriended on FB for being too liberal for some folks tastes, and have been at odds with my father since Trump's election. He's just too conservative (Trump) for my preference.

Don't feel bad though, most people are very black and white like you. "Doesn't favor doubling the minimum? Must be a neo-con!". It's easier than actually thinking, and allows you to feel like you have the moral high ground.
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#35
(07-03-2017, 04:45 AM)SickBeast Wrote: A-ha! I thought you lurked all these forums, particularly BTR! You are a wolf in sheep's clothing, trying to influence the political views of the two American people who read ABT! You have a right wing agenda and know Dave and Steel Crysis are key votes in next years mid terms!! DAAAAAAMMMNNN YOOOUUU Manchurian Poster Rollo! How DARE you try to subvert those two votes, and spread your ultra conservative views to Canada and Australia through GStan and me!!


Hit_head

Yeah, nothing paranoid or unlikely there......

Here's another theory:

Every day I read things on the internet and post about them on tech, outdoor, and auto forums.

I came across this article that supported a position I once made here, so I came back here to post it as evidence there might be something to what I was saying back then.

While doing so, McCowen gave me the opportunity to illustrate that small business plays a vital part of the economic picture by a. providing owners a path to wealth b. providing low wage jobs to people who either don't need high wages, or are between high wage jobs and just need survival cash while looking for better work c. being the starting place of many bigger corps who play bigger roles in the economy.

Which theory is more likely?? It's a mystery!

ROFLMAO
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#36
(07-03-2017, 07:10 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(07-03-2017, 04:45 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Oh he baited you. I thought you lurked all these forums, particularly BTR. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. You have a right wing agenda.

Rolleyes

I've been called that a few times over the years, in forums and IRL.

Nonetheless, you need to take off the tinfoil hat.  

I've seen you and GStan post a few times about me in the last few months over at BabbleTechReviews. That kind of thing doesn't motivate me, and I don't care what you two are up to. I hope you're living life on your own terms and enjoying it. I saw you bought a big tv, congrats, good purchase IMO.

The fact that I read that forum and this one at times has nothing to do with advancing an agenda- there's no one to advance it to. If I truly wanted to advance an agenda, I'd do it on the forums I post on that have more than a couple members?

If I were to try and advance ANY political agenda, this would be the one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican

(one of my conservative friends branded me this) I've actually been unfriended on FB for being too liberal for some folks tastes, and have been at odds with my father since Trump's election. He's just too conservative (Trump) for my preference.

Don't feel bad though, most people are very black and white like you. "Doesn't favor doubling the minimum? Must be a neo-con!". It's easier than actually thinking, and allows you to feel like you have the moral high ground.

Agenda or not, you are incredibly stubborn and you try to no end to convince others to agree with your opinions. You claim to vote for the Democrats but pretty much everything I see you post comes from the right side of the political spectrum. Perhaps that is partly because I am Canadian and even the left end of the spectrum there is about as far right as things get here for the most part. I suppose the crux of my point is that I have *never* seen you budge from any of your opinions. I have never seen anyone else sway you. I find that you tend to argue to the bitter end about just about anything and everything, with anyone who will engage you (cough...gstanford...cough).

Anyhow, I do hope all is well. You're not going to change any time soon. So long as things are moderately peaceful around here and at BTR I am happy.
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#37
(07-04-2017, 01:31 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Agenda or not, you are incredibly stubborn and you try to no end to convince others to agree with your opinions.  You claim to vote for the Democrats but pretty much everything I see you post comes from the right side of the political spectrum.  Perhaps that is partly because I am Canadian and even the left end of the spectrum there is about as far right as things get here for the most part.  I suppose the crux of my point is that I have *never* seen you budge from any of your opinions.  I have never seen anyone else sway you.  I find that you tend to argue to the bitter end about just about anything and everything, with anyone who will engage you (cough...gstanford...cough).

Anyhow, I do hope all is well.  You're not going to change any time soon.  So long as things are moderately peaceful around here and at BTR I am happy.

What would the agenda be? I don't want anyone to vote for Republicans until they run a more moderate candidate who is in step with modern times on social issues.

I only comment on this because from a small business perspective doubling the minimum wage does not work and we need small business for the reasons noted.

If you own a small business with the equivalent of 5 full time employees you have to give a $7/hour raise to, that is $280/week X 5 X 52 = $72800 out of your profits.

If you're making $125,000 a year in your small business, who is actually going to say, "Well, the jig is up. The minimum wage wasn't fair, so my investing $300K of my retirement savings to open this restaurant now pays me $50,000 a year instead of $125,000 a year. Sucks to be me I guess."

And that's IF the place was earning $125K profit. A lot of small businesses don't but they are worth it to the owners because they churn out $75K-$125K a year. They basically bought a job and being their own boss.

I will never change, unless someone can show me the error of my logic.

https://smallbiztrends.com/2010/11/how-m...-make.html

Quote: The figure shows that the average S corp generated about $100,000 income on about $1.5 million in sales in the last year before the Great Recession.

Also:

http://www.aei.org/publication/the-publi...-too-high/

Some guys like Dave (who don't own businesses) yelling about how "those guys have lots of money, they're just greedy!" doesn't make it true.

Prove me wrong with statistics that show small retailers and restaurant owners are making hundreds of thousands and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
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#38
BTW- as far as Dave's "small businesses who can't afford to pay shouldn't exist" theory:

http://www.aei.org/publication/the-publi...-too-high/

Quote:According to the U.S. Small Business Administration, there were 28.2 million small businesses in 2011, and they made up all but 0.3 percent of U.S. employer firms. Small firms accounted for nearly two-thirds of the net new jobs created between 1993 and mid-2013, and they provide nearly half of private-sector employment.

Most people don't work for big semi conductor firms like Dave. Half the country works for small business, and they create most of the new jobs.

Get rid of them and we would have financial collapse.

I'm the only teacher in this forum these days, at least on business.

(although I defer to Ben in general on the topic, and ocre knows the score as well)
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#39
All that's going to happen is prices will increase across the board. It will affect all of the businesses equally. Expect to pay more at McDonald's and other places like that. I don't have a problem with it. Those workers deserve a decent wage. Actually those types of jobs are going to be all that we have left pretty soon. Automation is going to replace entire professions. I expect that a basic income is also going to be necessary and they will have to tax the robots. Eventually most people will be paid to do nothing.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
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#40
(07-04-2017, 06:02 AM)SickBeast Wrote: All that's going to happen is prices will increase across the board. It will affect all of the businesses equally. Expect to pay more at McDonald's and other places like that. I don't have a problem with it. Those workers deserve a decent wage. Actually those types of jobs are going to be all that we have left pretty soon. Automation is going to replace entire professions. I expect that a basic income is also going to be necessary and they will have to tax the robots. Eventually most people will be paid to do nothing.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

Think about what you said for a moment.

You just made the point I have been saying all along, that unless owners will take less profit, you will see inflation.

That's what making more and paying more across the board is.

If you used to make $280 a week and your food cost $100/week, and now you make $380 a week but your food costs $200/week you haven't really progressed.
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