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Nvidia Threatens to Become A Monopoly
#1
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphi...ics-cards/
Based on the findings of JPR, the only analysts I trust.
Quote:Back in October, 2014, AMD announced that it would reduce spending on sales, marketing, administrative and other structures built around its computing and graphics products business unit. The company reduced the headcount of its CG group’s personnel by 700 employees. To make the matters worse, AMD’s declining revenues mean that the company has to cut its spending on sales and marketing. Consequently, there is nothing new to sell because AMD does not introduce new products, besides, the company’s abilities to sell are getting lower too.

In the recent months popularity of Nvidia GeForce products among end-users got a lot higher thanks to graphics cards like the GeForce GTX 970 and 980 as well as due to some other reasons. As a result, a number of graphics cards makers changed their shipments proportions in favour of Nvidia GeForce solutions.

According to Jon Peddie Research, total available market of desktop discrete graphics cards in Q3 2014 was 12.4 million units. Nvidia’s market share increased 9.5 per cent to 71.5 per cent, whereas AMD’s share declined to 28.4 per cent, JPR reports. It is likely that in the Q4 2014 Nvidia’s share increased further.

DigiTimes reports that manufacturers of graphics boards are worried that the market could gradually lean toward Nvidia. If Nvidia controls a dominating market share of the market, it will force them to buy more from Nvidia, and they will lose ability to negotiate GPU prices. As a consequence, prices of graphics cards could go up, which will further reduce demand for discrete graphics adapters.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#2
People fear this for no reason.

intel has a virtual monopoly in CPUs, does anyone seriously think AMD competition is what makes them sell 4790Ks for $300?

intel and Nvidia are pretty big companies. They HAVE to price parts at a price people will pay, and release them in a timely fashion, or people won't buy. intel and Nvidia have to wring "$X" out of consumers every year to provide profit and growth to the shareholders.

With alternate technologies emerging and cutting in to the desktop market, you can bet the LAST thing on Nvidia and intel's mind if AMD closes shop is "Woot! Now everything costs over $1000!".

Was a different market when intel was gouging, personal pcs were a burgeoning craze. Too many alternative technologies, and pc tech is not the current fashion.
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#3
Exactly. There's no motivation to price gouge. I'm still worried about the negative effects of monopoly, just not in price gouging. People love to forget about AMD's $750 and $1000 CPUs back in the day.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#4
(03-09-2015, 03:55 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: Exactly.  There's no motivation to price gouge.  I'm still worried about the negative effects of monopoly, just not in price gouging.  People love to forget about AMD's $750 and $1000 CPUs back in the day.

There are plenty of reasons to gouge, but luckily for us need to keep up a cash flow will stop it from happening. Smile

PC market is already shrinking, it's not time to gouge.
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#5
If nvidia does become a monopoly it will be due to AMD's incompetence, not nvidia's greed or bad behaviour.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#6
I don't see AMD as "incompetent". They make the second best CPUs and GPUs on the planet, which is no small feat.

Unfortunately for them, people don't have much reason to buy second best in these markets unless the price is lower, and AMD is already making low margins.

Nonetheless, being second best at this is still pretty amazing. What those guys produce makes what the rest of us do look like flipping burgers.
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#7
2nd best in AMD's case is continuing to use a steam engine from 1698 (back when the first one became commercially useful) while the rest of the world has advanced way past that to modern high efficiency computer timed petrol engines with fuel cell engines on the way.

AMD/ATi have never really recovered from g80. r600 was no answer and neither has been anything else they have brought forth since.

Yes, some of their products get roughly in the ballpark, but only by burning power like there is no tomorrow and seeking to replace their owners heating furnace.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#8
I still wish Intel and PowerVR would get into the desktop GPU space. It would be nice to have more competition.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#9
(03-09-2015, 09:12 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: I still wish Intel and PowerVR would get into the desktop GPU space.  It would be nice to have more competition.

You and me both.

Used to be a big deal in my hobby world to get the annual video card issue of Computer Gaming World.

Things were a lot more interesting in the gaming hardware world when a person could pick between AMD, Cyrix, NexGen and intel for a CPU, and NVIDIA, ATi, PowerVR, Rendition, S3, Matrox, and 3dfx for GPUs.

These days you wait for NVIDIA or intel to launch a product, and hope AMD comes up with something reasonable.
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#10
It's not like the Parhelia days anymore is it...
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#11
(03-11-2015, 02:15 AM)BjorgenFjords Wrote: It's not like the Parhelia days anymore is it...


I haven't heard that name in a looong time, but check out how the Mystique rocks Turok:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/181/5
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#12
You mean the Mystaque.... Smile Tongue

and seriously people bitch about nvidia and ATi being expensive at the highend. Matrox had ridiculous prices for their cards across the board.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#13
(03-09-2015, 03:55 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: Exactly. There's no motivation to price gouge. I'm still worried about the negative effects of monopoly, just not in price gouging. People love to forget about AMD's $750 and $1000 CPUs back in the day.

That is not necessarily true. Although they would not say, price a GM204 type GTX980 chip at $1000, the price would surely not stay at $500. We have already seen that on GT200 days, when it was released at $650, without a huge improvement over G80 to justify the much higher price tag. Only AMD's release of Radeon 4870 brought the price down to normal. That shows that there would definitely be a price gouge, just not an extreme one. But any dollar lost by the consumer under a monopoly situation should be seen as bad situation, irrespective of how much. Another effect from nVIDIA having a monopoly would be slower gains with each generation. Especially considering that they have a huge power over the PC Gaming Market with tools like GameWorks, they would have all the liberty in the world to dictate how PC gaming should evolve making it harder and harder for new comers to enter the market. nVIDIA having a monopoly is end game for PC gaming market and that should make all of us worried, whether we are nVIDIA fans or not.

Do not commit the mistake of seeing either nVIDIA or AMD as good/bad guys. They are money making businesses driven by shareholders who assess the business success not from technological POV (most of them probably do not even understand how computers work) but from the money it brings in. That was in fact what brought AMD down after K8 success. Instead of pushing the R&D envelope further, they opted to cash out. Under a monopoly situation, do not have any doubt that nVIDIA shareholders will do the same or worse.

Off-topic: The security question on the new forum registration process is very american based. I had to research who the hell the guy is and what show does he host to be able to answer. I do not think it would be hard for a bot to answer either. After all we already have Google Now/Siri/Cortana for who that is a piece of cake.
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#14
(03-11-2015, 08:00 AM)gstanford Wrote: You mean the Mystaque.... Smile Tongue

and seriously people bitch about nvidia and ATi being expensive at the highend.  Matrox had ridiculous prices for their cards across the board.

I think the Matrox M3D was $100..

In any case, AMD is really falling off the map lately. I guess those who thought the console contracts would save them overestimated the revenue stream from those parts, or underestimated how much revenue AMD needs.

I may have mentioned these things in days gone by...

Angel
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#15
Quote:I think the Matrox M3D was $100..

The g400 and Parhelia were very expensive though.  They were the only Matrox 3D accelerators worth getting excited about. The M3D wasn't even a matrox designed chip, it was some variant of a nasty old Videologic PCX2 chip. Total junk.

Quote:I guess those who thought the console contracts would save them overestimated the revenue stream from those parts, or underestimated how much revenue AMD needs.

Probably both at once given how brainless your average FanATic is!  Tongue
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#16
(03-11-2015, 06:32 PM)gstanford Wrote:
Quote:I think the Matrox M3D was $100..

The g400 and Parhelia were very expensive though.  They were the only Matrox 3D accelerators worth getting excited about.  The M3D wasn't even a matrox designed chip, it was some variant of a nasty old Videologic PCX2 chip.  Total junk.


Quote:I guess those who thought the console contracts would save them overestimated the revenue stream from those parts, or underestimated how much revenue AMD needs.

Probably both at once given how brainless your average FanATic is!  Tongue

Hey some thought the M3d was the shape of things to come with it's tile based rendering, too bad the stuff it rendered had cracks in it.
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#17
(03-09-2015, 03:55 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: Exactly.  There's no motivation to price gouge.  I'm still worried about the negative effects of monopoly, just not in price gouging.  People love to forget about AMD's $750 and $1000 CPUs back in the day.
I really fear for the future of this forum if you guys are allowed to post nonsense like this without recourse. OF COURSE a monopoly will raise prices and stagnate innovation! Look at what has happened with Intel. They shut down overclocking on all but their most expensive chips (the G3258 was an anomaly). They have also failed to innovate since Sandy Bridge to the point that the A8X CPU in the Ipad Air 2 is as powerful as a mobile i5.

If nVidia does get a monopoly we are all screwed. If you think innovation is slow now just wait until AMD dies.

I don't understand both you and Rollo with your nonsense.
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#18
(03-12-2015, 02:43 AM)SickBeast Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 03:55 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: Exactly.  There's no motivation to price gouge.  I'm still worried about the negative effects of monopoly, just not in price gouging.  People love to forget about AMD's $750 and $1000 CPUs back in the day.
I really fear for the future of this forum if you guys are allowed to post nonsense like this without recourse.  OF COURSE a monopoly will raise prices and stagnate innovation!   Look at what has happened with Intel.  They shut down overclocking  on all but their most expensive chips (the G3258 was an anomaly).  They have also failed to innovate since Sandy Bridge to the point that the A8X CPU in the Ipad Air 2 is as powerful as a mobile i5.

If nVidia does get a monopoly we are all screwed.  If you think innovation is slow now just wait until AMD dies.

I don't understand both you and Rollo with your nonsense.

You don't understand because you don't work in the business world, but the logic of it should be intuitive.

NVIDIA exists to provide shareholders with profit, not to give you faster video cards on what you deem a reasonable schedule.

So while they could indeed slow the release of new tech, and it may well be in their best interest to do so in times of zero competition, they can't just keep re-releasing the same stuff. (or even close to it)

They HAVE to give people a reason to buy at a price they will pay. For those of us who don't overclock, the cards don't wear out. So people don't really have any reason to buy new ones if there is no performance bump, and there isn't a big enough market of new buyers to feed the Nv beast.

Their business model is built on people buying a new card every 2 years.

You apparently are laboring under the commonly held delusion that competition somehow drives innovation and overrides supply and demand.
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#19
(03-12-2015, 06:05 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 02:43 AM)SickBeast Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 03:55 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: Exactly.  There's no motivation to price gouge.  I'm still worried about the negative effects of monopoly, just not in price gouging.  People love to forget about AMD's $750 and $1000 CPUs back in the day.
I really fear for the future of this forum if you guys are allowed to post nonsense like this without recourse.  OF COURSE a monopoly will raise prices and stagnate innovation!   Look at what has happened with Intel.  They shut down overclocking  on all but their most expensive chips (the G3258 was an anomaly).  They have also failed to innovate since Sandy Bridge to the point that the A8X CPU in the Ipad Air 2 is as powerful as a mobile i5.

If nVidia does get a monopoly we are all screwed.  If you think innovation is slow now just wait until AMD dies.

I don't understand both you and Rollo with your nonsense.

You don't understand because you don't work in the business world, but the logic of it should be intuitive.

NVIDIA exists to provide shareholders with profit, not to give you faster video cards on what you deem a reasonable schedule.

So while they could indeed slow the release of new tech, and it may well be in their best interest to do so in times of zero competition, they can't just keep re-releasing the same stuff. (or even close to it)

They HAVE to give people a reason to buy at a price they will pay. For those of us who don't overclock, the cards don't wear out. So people don't really have any reason to buy new ones if there is no performance bump, and there isn't a big enough market of new buyers to feed the Nv beast.

Their business model is built on people buying a new card every 2 years.

You apparently are laboring under the commonly held delusion that competition somehow drives innovation and overrides supply and demand.

Incredible how you see nothing wrong with slowing the release of new tech? Be an nVIDIA fan, but think for yourself as well, please.
And what common delusion about competition driving innovation? Its not a delusion, its a FACT. You are the one spewing delusions about nVIDIA being a "good guy" because it "has to".
Funny how both you and SteelCrysis completely ignored my post. Seems like you do not remember the price gouge nVIDIA did with GTX280 right? The fiasco where they ended up returning money to people who bought it launch. That would not have happened at all without what? Say again? COMPETITION! They only gave money back because ATI launched the successful 4870. You have the perfect example of what happened in front of your eyes and still spew bullshit. Incredible. Worse than this, just religion.
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#20
Rollo is actually correct.

nvidia will just do what intel does with the i series CPUs.

There already are boutique parts nvidia can and does charge the consumer silly prices for (Titan/Titan-Z).

At the end of the day nvidia has to keep selling cards or go bankrupt due to no sales, no matter if AMD is around or not.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#21
(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Incredible how you see nothing wrong with slowing the release of new tech? Be an nVIDIA fan, but think for yourself as well, please.
What is incredible is how a few posts above you state,"
Do not commit the mistake of seeing either nVIDIA or AMD as good/bad guys. They are money making businesses driven by shareholders who assess the business success not from technological POV (most of them probably do not even understand how computers work) but from the money it brings in. " and here you assign morality to one of the ways companies maximize profit and insure their long term profitability. Why? Just to argue?

(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: And what common delusion about competition driving innovation? Its not a delusion, its a FACT.
Why hasn't competition driven AMD to create better CPUs than intel? If Samsung invents a GPU that has 10X the processing power of the GTX980, you think Jen Hsun can hold a company meeting and say, "Invent a GPU with 11X the processing power of a GTX980 or we're sunk!"? Competition can hasten release of parts that are done, but not drive innovation/invention.

(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: You are the one spewing delusions about nVIDIA being a "good guy" because it "has to".
I never said Nvidia was a "good guy". Nvidia is a business that will do what maximizes profit. If you want to pretend Nvidia should put your interests ahead of theirs and give you all the toys you want when you want for less than the market will bear for a price, please feel free.

(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Funny how both you and SteelCrysis completely ignored my post.
Last I checked, we're free to respond to who we choose and don't owe you a response.

(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Seems like you do not remember the price gouge nVIDIA did with GTX280 right? The fiasco where they ended up returning money to people who bought it launch. That would not have happened at all without what? Say again? COMPETITION! They only gave money back because ATI launched the successful 4870. You have the perfect example of what happened in front of your eyes and still spew bullshit. Incredible. Worse than this, just religion.
Competition is one aspect of pricing, supply and demand is the key component. If ten video card companies can produce 1000 cards per year, but the market wants 100,000, the price will be high even though ten companies make 1000 cards for you to choose from.
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#22
(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Incredible how you see nothing wrong with slowing the release of new tech? Be an nVIDIA fan, but think for yourself as well, please.
And what common delusion about competition driving innovation? Its not a delusion, its a FACT. You are the one spewing delusions about nVIDIA being a "good guy" because it "has to".
Funny how both you and SteelCrysis completely ignored my post. Seems like you do not remember the price gouge nVIDIA did with GTX280 right? The fiasco where they ended up returning money to people who bought it launch. That would not have happened at all without what? Say again? COMPETITION! They only gave money back because ATI launched the successful 4870. You have the perfect example of what happened in front of your eyes and still spew bullshit. Incredible. Worse than this, just religion.

This post is far too emotional, IMHO. If SteelCrysis and Rollothegreat ignored your points, perhaps they felt your points were actually, well, non points. Hey, it can happen.
Anyway, I'd like to see less of this type of personal posting and more of on topic stuff, but that might just be me.
Nvidia becoming a monopoly is of course not a good thing. For us, or them. Aren't they technically a monopoly if the have 80% or more of a given market? That might possibly be just an arbitrary number I've heard floating around regarding talks like this.

FYI: This is Keysplayr. I can't seem to find the option to ad a sig. Maybe I have to reach a certain post count.
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#23
(03-12-2015, 05:33 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: What is incredible is how a few posts above you state,"
Do not commit the mistake of seeing either nVIDIA or AMD as good/bad guys. They are money making businesses driven by shareholders who assess the business success not from technological POV (most of them probably do not even understand how computers work) but from the money it brings in. " and here you assign morality to one of the ways companies maximize profit and insure their long term profitability. Why? Just to argue?

I am not assigning any morality towards nVIDIA. I am assigning it towards you, as a consumer! You, as a consumer, seems not to bother with the impacts of a monopoly on yourself! I was targeting your assumption that it is "OK" for nVIDIA to have a monopoly. Unless, of course, you are an nVIDIA employee, at which point is pointless for me to argue with you.

Quote:Why hasn't competition driven AMD to create better CPUs than intel? If Samsung invents a GPU that has 10X the processing power of the GTX980, you think Jen Hsun can hold a company meeting and say, "Invent a GPU with 11X the processing power of a GTX980 or we're sunk!"? Competition can hasten release of parts that are done, but not drive innovation/invention.

Because there is no competition on the CPU space, AT ALL? Intel has the x86 market monopoly for itself. You do not need to have a company holding 100% of the market to call it a monopoly. If one company has such a high share that undermines the other(s) one the capability to survive and thrive, you are in a monopoly! AMD is totally dominated by Intel, hence it is deprived from the necessary resources to invest and create better CPUs than Intel. Notwithstanding errors made by AMD as well, when they were on the high.

Now, your Samsung vs nVIDIA case. Yes, if Samsung or any other company would invent a GPU that has 10X the processing power of GTX980 (which is probably impossible since Samsung has absolutely no presence or expertise in the GPU market - ironically, that same situation nVIDIA is with Tegra..), nVIDIA would be forced to use all the resources it can to counter that. They would either do that or die and no company will kill itself without trying. If it would succeed or not, is another story. But without Samsung COMPETITION, it would not even try and be happy with much less of an increase generation over generation. Is this so hard to understand? Is competition the number one factor for new technology? No, we are humans, not magicians. Does it have a large impact? Yes. So please, stop your straw-man arguments and be consistent and thorough in your analyses, otherwise its pointless to have a conversation with you (why do I even try?).

Quote:I never said Nvidia was a "good guy". Nvidia is a business that will do what maximizes profit. If you want to pretend Nvidia should put your interests ahead of theirs and give you all the toys you want when you want for less than the market will bear for a price, please feel free.

See my answer to the first point. Plus, we are discussing nVIDIA having a monopoly, not nVIDIA itself. Can you not understand the difference?

Quote:Last I checked, we're free to respond to who we choose and don't owe you a response.

Of course you are. In case you did not understand, my observation was to imply that what I wrote was ignored because it went against your theory.

(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Seems like you do not remember the price gouge nVIDIA did with GTX280 right? The fiasco where they ended up returning money to people who bought it launch. That would not have happened at all without what? Say again? COMPETITION! They only gave money back because ATI launched the successful 4870. You have the perfect example of what happened in front of your eyes and still spew bullshit. Incredible. Worse than this, just religion.
Quote:Competition is one aspect of pricing, supply and demand is the key component. If ten video card companies can produce 1000 cards per year, but the market wants 100,000, the price will be high even though ten companies make 1000 cards for you to choose from.

Thanks for absolutely ignoring the point. Just answer the question: If AMD had not come out with 4870, would nVIDIA had reduced the price on GTX280? Or give partial refunds? You know they would not. The reasons they priced the card at $650 is because they were expecting no competition! If you what you said had more relevance than competition, they would have kept the price! Its as simple as that!

(03-12-2015, 05:46 PM)BjorgenFjords Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 04:21 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Incredible how you see nothing wrong with slowing the release of new tech? Be an nVIDIA fan, but think for yourself as well, please.
And what common delusion about competition driving innovation? Its not a delusion, its a FACT. You are the one spewing delusions about nVIDIA being a "good guy" because it "has to".
Funny how both you and SteelCrysis completely ignored my post. Seems like you do not remember the price gouge nVIDIA did with GTX280 right? The fiasco where they ended up returning money to people who bought it launch. That would not have happened at all without what? Say again? COMPETITION! They only gave money back because ATI launched the successful 4870. You have the perfect example of what happened in front of your eyes and still spew bullshit. Incredible. Worse than this, just religion.

This post is far too emotional, IMHO. If SteelCrysis and Rollothegreat ignored your points, perhaps they felt your points were actually, well, non points. Hey, it can happen.
Anyway, I'd like to see less of this type of personal posting and more of on topic stuff, but that might just be me.
Nvidia becoming a monopoly is of course not a good thing. For us, or them. Aren't they technically a monopoly if the have 80% or more of a given market? That might possibly be just an arbitrary number I've heard floating around regarding talks like this.

FYI: This is Keysplayr. I can't seem to find the option to ad a sig. Maybe I have to reach a certain post count.

Tell me how can you have a discussion with someone without ending up personal when that person denies things that are proven facts. At that point you are not discussing opinions, but you jumped to the realm of faith. There is no objectivity in faith, only subjectivity, ergo sum, personal.
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#24
(03-12-2015, 05:46 PM)BjorgenFjords Wrote: FYI: This is Keysplayr. I can't seem to find the option to ad a sig. Maybe I have to reach a certain post count.
Yes, you just need to reach a certain number of posts. It is to frustrate spammers who register and never post anything but leave spam in their signatures for guests to access by viewing their profile.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#25
(03-12-2015, 05:07 PM)gstanford Wrote: Rollo is actually correct.

nvidia will just do what intel does with the i series CPUs.

There already are boutique parts nvidia can and does charge the consumer silly prices for (Titan/Titan-Z).

At the end of the day nvidia has to keep selling cards or go bankrupt due to no sales, no matter if AMD is around or not.

And what has intel done since Sandy Bridge came out? 10% gains each year? And you're happy with that? I know I'm not. Monopolies destroy innovation and raise prices for consumers. There is a reason why they are illegal.
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#26
(03-12-2015, 06:19 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Tell me how can you have a discussion with someone without ending up personal when that person denies things that are proven facts. At that point you are not discussing opinions, but you jumped to the realm of faith. There is no objectivity in faith, only subjectivity, ergo sum, personal.

By controlling yourself. Accept that not everything you say is an absolute fact and that others have different opinions than your own. You HAVE to accept that otherwise you have no business even having a single conversation with another human being on this planet. Everyone is different. When they are different from yourself, that shouldn't give you cause to go after them personally. Stick to your argument and present factoids as best as you can. If those factoids are strong enough, any educated person will consider them and may or may not change their view. If they don't, you cannot hold it against them.
This is all I'm saying on this subject, people should know how to have a conversation by now on public forums without getting personal.

(03-12-2015, 07:04 PM)SickBeast Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 05:07 PM)gstanford Wrote: Rollo is actually correct.

nvidia will just do what intel does with the i series CPUs.

There already are boutique parts nvidia can and does charge the consumer silly prices for (Titan/Titan-Z).

At the end of the day nvidia has to keep selling cards or go bankrupt due to no sales, no matter if AMD is around or not.

And what has intel done since Sandy Bridge came out?  10% gains each year?  And you're happy with that?  I know I'm not.  Monopolies destroy innovation and raise prices for consumers.  There is a reason why they are illegal.

I'm quite unexcited about the progression of Intel CPU performance increases since Sandy. it's the reason I still have my 2500k. Nothing out there shows enough performance gain to justify the platform upgrade costs right now, and if the 5% IPC increase Broadwell is rumored to have is true, I may STILL stay with the Sandy. Crazy right?
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#27
(03-12-2015, 07:09 PM)BjorgenFjords Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 06:19 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Tell me how can you have a discussion with someone without ending up personal when that person denies things that are proven facts. At that point you are not discussing opinions, but you jumped to the realm of faith. There is no objectivity in faith, only subjectivity, ergo sum, personal.

By controlling yourself. Accept that not everything you say is an absolute fact and that others have different opinions than your own. You HAVE to accept that otherwise you have no business even having a single conversation with another human being on this planet. Everyone is different. When they are different from yourself, that shouldn't give you cause to go after them personally. Stick to your argument and present factoids as best as you can. If those factoids are strong enough, any educated person will consider them and may or may not change their view. If they don't, you cannot hold it against them.
This is all I'm saying on this subject, people should know how to have a conversation by now on public forums without getting personal.


(03-12-2015, 07:04 PM)SickBeast Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 05:07 PM)gstanford Wrote: Rollo is actually correct.

nvidia will just do what intel does with the i series CPUs.

There already are boutique parts nvidia can and does charge the consumer silly prices for (Titan/Titan-Z).

At the end of the day nvidia has to keep selling cards or go bankrupt due to no sales, no matter if AMD is around or not.

And what has intel done since Sandy Bridge came out?  10% gains each year?  And you're happy with that?  I know I'm not.  Monopolies destroy innovation and raise prices for consumers.  There is a reason why they are illegal.

I'm quite unexcited about the progression of Intel CPU performance increases since Sandy. it's the reason I still have my 2500k. Nothing out there shows enough performance gain to justify the platform upgrade costs right now, and if the 5% IPC increase Broadwell is rumored to have is true, I may STILL stay with the Sandy. Crazy right?
I agree, it's ridiculous. Had my wife not spilled miso soup on my 2500k I would still be using it as well. Apple's A8X can now match intel's mobile i5 CPUs and that is a <5w processor. Pretty soon Nvidia will overtake them with the Tegra CPUs as well and we will see what happens. Intel is eventually going to have to compete with the ARM chips otherwise x86 is just going to die completely one day.
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#28
(03-12-2015, 07:09 PM)BjorgenFjords Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 06:19 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Tell me how can you have a discussion with someone without ending up personal when that person denies things that are proven facts. At that point you are not discussing opinions, but you jumped to the realm of faith. There is no objectivity in faith, only subjectivity, ergo sum, personal.

By controlling yourself. Accept that not everything you say is an absolute fact and that others have different opinions than your own. You HAVE to accept that otherwise you have no business even having a single conversation with another human being on this planet. Everyone is different. When they are different from yourself, that shouldn't give you cause to go after them personally. Stick to your argument and present factoids as best as you can. If those factoids are strong enough, any educated person will consider them and may or may not change their view. If they don't, you cannot hold it against them.
This is all I'm saying on this subject, people should know how to have a conversation by now on public forums without getting personal.

That is all fine and dandy and political correct. Things go bust when you are presenting facts, which ARE facts, but someone else likes to invent their own.
This is already off topic though and since you are not a mod, as far as I am aware, I wonder why you jumped in to comment on my posts. Maybe because you both have something in common heh? That is all I'm saying on the subject as well, since everyone else knows who you both are and who you work or worked for.
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#29
It is north of 30% performance difference between my Sandy Bridge 2600K and Devils Canyon 4790K at the same clock speeds (4.4 ghz) and that is only the processor improvement, not taking into account platform improvement as well (z68 to z97).

So I'm actually quite delighted with my Devils Canyon CPU's (have two of them) and you won't get me to say a bad thing about them or their pricing (cheaper than either of the Phenom II's I owned).

(03-12-2015, 07:04 PM)SickBeast Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 05:07 PM)gstanford Wrote: Rollo is actually correct.

nvidia will just do what intel does with the i series CPUs.

There already are boutique parts nvidia can and does charge the consumer silly prices for (Titan/Titan-Z).

At the end of the day nvidia has to keep selling cards or go bankrupt due to no sales, no matter if AMD is around or not.

And what has intel done since Sandy Bridge came out?  10% gains each year?  And you're happy with that?  I know I'm not.  Monopolies destroy innovation and raise prices for consumers.  There is a reason why they are illegal.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#30
(03-12-2015, 07:17 PM)Picao84 Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 07:09 PM)BjorgenFjords Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 06:19 PM)Picao84 Wrote: Tell me how can you have a discussion with someone without ending up personal when that person denies things that are proven facts. At that point you are not discussing opinions, but you jumped to the realm of faith. There is no objectivity in faith, only subjectivity, ergo sum, personal.

By controlling yourself. Accept that not everything you say is an absolute fact and that others have different opinions than your own. You HAVE to accept that otherwise you have no business even having a single conversation with another human being on this planet. Everyone is different. When they are different from yourself, that shouldn't give you cause to go after them personally. Stick to your argument and present factoids as best as you can. If those factoids are strong enough, any educated person will consider them and may or may not change their view. If they don't, you cannot hold it against them.
This is all I'm saying on this subject, people should know how to have a conversation by now on public forums without getting personal.

That is all fine and dandy and political correct. Things go bust when you are presenting facts, which ARE facts, but someone else likes to invent their own.
This is already off topic though and since you are not a mod, as far as I am aware, I wonder why you jumped in to comment on my posts. Maybe because you both have something in common heh? That is all I'm saying on the subject as well, since everyone else knows who you both are and who you work or worked for.

Well, then I guess we have you pinned down as the guy who can't have a regular conversation because as soon as something doesn't go your way, you go after the individual rather than the subject matter. Congratulations, you are now thoroughly labeled. At least in my little book here. I hope you find a way to change that. It would be surprisingly cool and refreshing. And like you, that is all I'll say on the off topic subject.
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#31
(03-12-2015, 07:16 PM)SickBeast Wrote: I agree, it's ridiculous.  Had my wife not spilled miso soup on my 2500k I would still be using it as well.  Apple's A8X can now match intel's mobile i5 CPUs and that is a <5w processor.  Pretty soon Nvidia will overtake them with the Tegra CPUs as well and we will see what happens.  Intel is eventually going to have to compete with the ARM chips otherwise x86 is just going to die completely one day.
What a ridiculous argument. Key words being "mobile i5" and not the latest mobile i5's either.

ARM can't hold a candle to an intel desktop CPU.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#32
(03-12-2015, 07:49 PM)gstanford Wrote:
(03-12-2015, 07:16 PM)SickBeast Wrote: I agree, it's ridiculous.  Had my wife not spilled miso soup on my 2500k I would still be using it as well.  Apple's A8X can now match intel's mobile i5 CPUs and that is a <5w processor.  Pretty soon Nvidia will overtake them with the Tegra CPUs as well and we will see what happens.  Intel is eventually going to have to compete with the ARM chips otherwise x86 is just going to die completely one day.
What a ridiculous argument.  Key words being "mobile i5" and not the latest mobile i5's either.

ARM can't hold a candle to an intel desktop CPU.

Yes, the A8X can beat the latest Haswell based mobile i5. I will look for the article.

*edit*

Here you go:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/192...-modern-pc

My mistake, it doesn't beat the i5 but it comes close. Like I said, give it another year or two and Intel is in serious trouble.
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#33
All you are seeing is a meeting in the middle, the question is who will continue to cut power use and improve performance faster, ARM or intel?

My money is on intel.  They have taken their complex x86 architecture and made it able to compete with ARM's best. This isn't Atom, this is flagship Haswell/Broadwell taking over ARM turf.

ARM can't take the A8X and turn it into a Devil's Canyon 4790K beater though.

In other words intel is taking the fight to ARM and winning but ARM can't take the fight to intel and win.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#34
Intel is by no means winning against arm. Have you looked at a smartphone lately? Seeing many Intel chips in them? There is a reason why nobody does.
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#35
Really?  Google ASUS Zenfone 2.....

http://www.babeltechreviews.com/communit...php?tid=11

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/t...artphones/
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#36
That phone hasn't even been released yet.
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#37
It will be released before the end of this month.

There are other intel phones getting about, but they target india, china, latin america etc more than the developed western market.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#38
It looks good actually so long as the battery life is ok. Much cheaper than the snapdragons with better performance. Keep in mind that Intel is on a smaller node though. Arm is still inherently more efficient.
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#39
Quote:Keep in mind that Intel is on a smaller node though. Arm is still inherently more efficient.
We will see now that Samsung claims to have a 14nm process, won't we?

I'm betting intel will win that fight too.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#40
(03-12-2015, 09:44 PM)gstanford Wrote:
Quote:Keep in mind that Intel is on a smaller node though. Arm is still inherently more efficient.
We will see now that Samsung claims to have a 14nm process, won't we?

I'm betting intel will win that fight too.

They can't. x86 is just not as efficient, the intel engineers can only do so much with it. On the same node, ARM will win, I can guarantee it. I'm actually surprised that intel can do as well as they are doing even with the smaller node.
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