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Gravity Payments CEO Dan Price cuts his salary from $1m to $70k, doubles staff wages
#1
Amazing. Perhaps there may be a small glimmer of hope left in American Capitalism yet. Hopefully we will see more of this sort of thing as the greedy baby-boomer dinosaurs finally retire and younger people take their places.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-bus...mlelj.html

Quote:The idea began percolating, said Dan Price, the founder of Gravity Payments, after he read an article on happiness. It showed that, for people who earn less than about $US70,000 ($92,105), extra money makes a big difference in their lives.

His idea bubbled into reality on Monday afternoon, when Price surprised his 120-person staff by announcing that he planned over the next three years to raise the salary of even the lowest-paid clerk, customer service representative and salesman to a minimum of $US70,000.

Quote:The United States has one of the world's largest pay gaps, with chief executives earning nearly 300 times what the average worker makes, according to some economists' estimates. That is much higher than the 20-to-1 ratio recommended by Gilded Age magnates like J. Pierpont Morgan and the 20th century management visionary Peter Drucker.

"The market rate for me as a CEO compared to a regular person is ridiculous. It's absurd," said Price, who said his main extravagances were snowboarding and picking up the bar bill. He drives a 12-year-old Audi, which he received in a barter for service from the local dealer.

"As much as I'm a capitalist, there is nothing in the market that is making me do it," he said, referring to paying wages that make it possible for his employees to go after the American dream, buy a house and pay for their children's education.

Quote:Price said he wasn't seeking to score political points with his plan.

From his friends, he heard stories of how tough it was to make ends meet even on salaries that were still well above the US minimum of $US7.25 ($9.54) an hour.

"They were walking me through the math of making 40 grand a year," he said, then describing a surprise rent increase or nagging credit card debt.

"I hear that every single week," he added. "That just eats at me inside."

Price said he wanted to do something to address the issue of inequality, although his proposal "made me really nervous" because he wanted to do it without raising prices for his customers or cutting service.

Of all the social issues that he felt he was in a position to do something about as a business leader, "that one seemed like a more worthy issue to go after."

He said he planned to keep his own salary low until the company earned back the profit it had before the new wage scale went into effect.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#2
And I still remember BenB****walker whining about how it was impossible to do anything like this.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#3
(04-16-2015, 09:13 AM)gstanford Wrote: Amazing.  Perhaps there may be a small glimmer of hope left in American Capitalism yet.  Hopefully we will see more of this sort of thing as the greedy baby-boomer dinosaurs finally retire and younger people take their places.

Don't expect this to catch on. This guy cut his salary from $1m to $70K, and spent 80% of the profits to do this. So he made his company cash poor and himself middle class to make people already middle class more solidly middle class.

Dan Jr: Dad, you're going to pay for my college, right?
Dan: No son, we helped the workers, we all have to make sacrifices!
Dan Jr. I hate you dad!

Mrs. Dan: Why is there a for sale sign in front of the house, and my Mercedes?
Dan: We're helping the workers! We don't need those things!
Mrs. Dan: Sure. Well, my lawyer will be in touch. I hope your new partner will like your idea better, I'm selling my half of the company.

(04-16-2015, 11:00 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: And I still remember BenB****walker whining about how it was impossible to do anything like this.

I've got $100 that says Ben is right, and not even 50 companies follow this guy's crazy lead in the next year.
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#4
You can live a damn good life on 70K per year! and the company isn't rendered profitless at all, it still makes a profit, just a lesser, not so obscene profit. In any case Dan expects to recover the profit lost from this and return to normal within two years while still paying an honest wage to his workers.

What is the point of lots of money tied to just a few individuals. it may help those individuals but it doesn't help society at larger. Your Mrs. Dan is a spoilt bitch and Dan Jr is a spoilt brat. Both desperately need a swift, hard kick up the arse followed by extraction of the silver spoon jammed up there.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#5
I've been seeing this all over the news and don't know the details but executive compensation can more than make up for the lower salary. Still I doubt this would take off. The 1% are pretty hell bent on destroying the Country as most are already prepared to move to places like Morocco when the U.S. goes into Anarchy.
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#6
The only way to get the 1%/whatever % to pay living wages and restrict CEO pay is to make it law through executive order, and the president must enforce that law at gunpoint by the force of the US military, and tell anyone who screams it's unconstitutional that they co-opted the necessary and proper clause because Congress is in the corporation's pockets. But totalitarianism has a crappy track record of doing good for the people, so that best-case scenario is not going to happen.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#7
I didn't say $70K was a bad living, I said you'll never see this.

We are a capitalist nation. The fact that everyone has the opportunity to make $70K....or $700K...means that some people can't.

While "Why don't we just pay EVERYONE $70K?!" sounds good:

1. Many business can't afford close to that.
2. No one is going to invest much money to earn $70K

(04-17-2015, 12:06 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: The only way to get the 1%/whatever % to pay living wages and restrict CEO pay is to make it law through executive order, and the president must enforce that law at gunpoint by the force of the US military, and tell anyone who screams it's unconstitutional that they co-opted the necessary and proper clause because Congress is in the corporation's pockets.  But totalitarianism has a crappy track record of doing good for the people, so that best-case scenario is not going to happen.

Nice viewpoint.

"Obama should just steal people's money at gunpoint!"

I think he should start with yours.
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#8
HAHa.

Sounds great!!!!!

I got a better idea though.
he should dress up like Santa Claus and fly around dropping off $70,000 prepayed VISAs to every one in the USA.

Money is completely made up so why steal anything from anyone at gun point? Just make it put of thin air............
just like the banks do
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#9
It would be a better way to spend the money than some of the idiotic things the US wastes billions of dollars on that is for sure.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#10
At least I can recognize when something I believe is unrealistic. You did notice that part, right? Just because I believe stealing CEO money at gunpoint is expedient doesn't make it practical, and I know this.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#11
RolloTheGreat Wrote:We are a capitalist nation. The fact that everyone has the opportunity to make $70K....or $700K...means that some people can't.

It is the responsibility of those "who can" in society (the privileged) to assist those "who cannot" (the denied)! Otherwise what is the point of society in the first place?! We should all just go live Dave's forthcoming anarchy.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#12
(04-17-2015, 08:47 AM)gstanford Wrote:
RolloTheGreat Wrote:We are a capitalist nation. The fact that everyone has the opportunity to make $70K....or $700K...means that some people can't.

It is the responsibility of those "who can" in society (the privileged) to assist those "who cannot" (the denied)!  Otherwise what is the point of society in the first place?!  We should all just go live Dave's forthcoming anarchy.

What's the point?!

Every person who lives here gets 13 years of free education.

Anyone who desires to can attend some sort of college and select their path in the system.

You can literally select the amount of money you want to make and how much you want to work.

What could be better than that? Seriously- what could be better than that?

You know who bitches about the system? People who made choices that didn't land them they lifestyle they see on tv.
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#13
That is bullshit and you know it.

There aren't enough high paying jobs out there for everyone and society needs people who do jobs that employers choose to pay them low wages for.

There are tons of college and university graduates in America doing menial work for menial pay right now.

That is before you take things like social classes and the glass ceiling between the upper class and the lower classes into account (let alone ethnic, gender, age and sexuality based discrimination).
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#14
(04-18-2015, 10:23 AM)gstanford Wrote: That is bullshit and you know it.

There aren't enough high paying jobs out there for everyone and society needs people who do jobs that employers choose to pay them low wages for.

There are tons of college and university graduates in America doing menial work for menial pay right now.

That is before you take things like social classes and the glass ceiling between the upper class and the lower classes into account (let alone ethnic, gender, age and sexuality based discrimination).

It's not bullshit. It's the truth.

My dad's parent's couldn't afford to pay for his college. He worked summers, did ROTC, and waited tables to get through and then hopped jobs a few years until he could get into white collar work and work his way up to running companies.

My grandparents on my mom's side could not afford to pay for my uncle's college, he worked his way through, ended up with a Masters in Engineering, and retired in his late 50s.

My wife's parents could not afford to pay for her college. Yep, worked her way through a bachelors in accounting, manages a dept of accounting people, and has held other managerial positions.

My parents could afford to pay for my college, and I squandered the opportunity. Partied and dropped my classes for three and a half years until my dad cut me off with a whole 40 credits to show for my efforts. Guess what I did? Yep- worked my way through the remaining 80 credits, and then another bachelors so I could get a good job.

If you're a minority here they will pay you to go to college.

More women go to college here than men, and as such, women are becoming the white collar workforce in the USA.

While it certainly is hard to crack into that "I own five companies and spend my summers in Europe" crowd, I know LOTS of people who started in lower and middle class and are now upper middle class or better.

As far as college grads mopping floors:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

Median income for bachelors degree: $57, 252/year, 3.5% unemployment. A person can easily live on $57K a year. If they marry someone who makes similar, you can live REALLY easily on $100K a year.

Half the people with a professional degree make $85K or more, and 98% of them work.

How about HS grads?

Median income $34,736, 6% unemployment. Tougher to live on $34K, but again, if you marry someone making similar, living on $70K a year can be done.

The system works.

BTW, while we do indeed need people to do things like "make sandwiches" there is no money there to pay them $70K a year.

http://www.startupnation.com/community/f...rant-owner

Quote:If you have a store that is merely average you should profit in the ballpark of $80k/yr.

Now lets say you were lucky enough to get a great location and you store does $15k/week (the area I am in has several stores that do this and much more in sales so it is very possible), well you should be making in excess of $150k per year.

So if the OWNER of the Subway sub shop is making $80k-$150K a year, how many sandwich makers can he give a $50K raise to before he's be better off making the sandwiches than owning the business? ONE at an average store, and TWO at high end store.

I know a guy that owns a small construction business. Works REAL long hours, makes $150K a year off the business. His workers are not high end laborers (think "roofing" not "finishing work in homes") and make $30-$40K. How many guys can he give a $30-40K raise to until he's better off working there than owning the place? At TWO he's making what they do.

This is why you will NEVER see "Let's just pay everyone $70,000" take off. In small businesses with low skill work. the profits just aren't there.

At a larger business, like a McDonalds, there is more money, but a. It takes a million dollar investment to start a McDs and people risking a million generally want a big return on investment b. LOT more employees at a McDs

Used to work at a small construction supply company. The profit was around $300K per year. About 15 of us working there. Give 15 guys a $30K raise to pay them all $70K and you just spent $450K when you had $300K profit. The owner should have borrowed money to pay us more?

It's true some companies make millions but you will never see the people who risked millions to start them agree to a $70k wage for their trouble.

Last story:

Knew an exec at a company where they had a few office workers , mostly low skill factory workers doing something the average wage was $15/hour. At this company, the loyal employees stayed with the company a long time and cost of living raises had them all way above the $15 an hour. The companies paying that who capped their wages and just turned over the low skill workers set the price point for the product lower than my friend's company could afford to sell at, but they had to sell at that price point, or they couldn't sell at all. (because their competitors provided essentially the same product)

They lost money year after year that the owners had to come up with, but the CEO did not want to betray his loyal employees and cut wages to market value.

The owners closed the factory to cut their losses and moved on.

Money does not grow on trees.
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#15
That was a very good post rollo, especially your very realistic scenarios.

But your way off on the collage graduate situation. It is a lot more complicated.

For starts, unemployment figures in The USA don't represent what you are trying to use them as. It has nothing to do with how many grads get jobs. If you don't know, then I will explain it. But if you do, if you already know this, than shame on you.

Unemployment percentages in the US are BS. The only people counted are the people actively drawing their states first tier unemployment. This means these people already had to have a job and they were laid off. The maximum length they can draw this is 26 weeks. After that, they are no longer counted. Even if they continue drawing unemployment extensions for 9 more months, they are not counted in the US unemployment figures.

The 3.5% number you thrown up is rubbish. Most grads who get jobs end up on salary anyway. And in a lot of these fields, there aren't a huge stock pile of individuals qualified to do the job. So many people who get hired in a career that is based on their degree, they get experience and become valued assets. The ones who do get let go, they often get a severance. They don't end up in an unemployment line. If they don't completely suck and chose a decent degree, they won't be without a job . See, companies go after people with experience, not just degrees.

Your unemployment figure means nothing at all in this argument. I won't spend anymore time on that.

Also, there are millions of kids and young adults graduating only to end up not finding a position at all. This is happening at an alarming rate, more so than ever. I think today, it is just not smart to tell your kids be what ever you want to be. Its not smart to only be thinking, what do I want to be. Today we need to look at what do you like that has the highest chance of landing you a job. What careers are in demand and where are these jobs at? Will I have to live somewhere I don't want to just to find work?

you have to be smart about it, cause if it takes you 4 years and there seems to be a huge trend of people heading in that direction, there might not be a job for you in 4 years.

Once a kid lands a job, once he gets experience, he is so much better off. I see so many kids graduating and not landing a job at all. The once that have, they usually have a much easier time landing on their feet no matter what happens down the road.
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#16
I realize this about the unemployment numbers, but whether you're not on UC benefits because you're on severance, or just employed, it's better to have some education these days. (at least in my opinion)

We're steering our son toward accounting because it's a fairly versatile degree in the business world. (and telling him internships are key)

The stories are realistic because they're true stories from my life or people I know.

I also realize there are a lot of grads not working in their field, and that wages vary highly by degree.

I have a BS-Business, average starting salary $56K:

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/201...rads-surge

I also have a BA-Psychology, average pay all over the board:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degr...ogy/Salary
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#17
Are you trying to imply that Dan Price's employees are uneducated and this is why they started out with lower wages?!

Plenty of people with great educations have low paying jons or no job at all, and the situation will only get worse over time as more and more work becomes automated or outsourced.

In Australia the previous federal government undertook a big program to ensure everyone receiving welfare went to a trade college ir university and emerged with a certificate in some field (not useless qualifications either, ones targetted towards the skills that employers require). The unemployment rate has barely budged despite this effort.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#18
(04-19-2015, 02:30 PM)gstanford Wrote: Are you trying to imply that Dan Price's employees are uneducated and this is why they started out with lower wages?!

Plenty of people with great educations have low paying jons or no job at all, and the situation will only get worse over time as more and more work becomes automated or outsourced.

Not at all. Dan Price's employees had an average wage of $48K already, which is a middle class wage here. (median household income in the USA was $51K in 2013, so he paid them a middle class wage before this)

(04-19-2015, 02:30 PM)gstanford Wrote: In Australia the previous federal government undertook a big program to ensure everyone receiving welfare went to a trade college ir university and emerged with a certificate in some field (not useless qualifications either, ones targetted towards the skills that employers require).  The unemployment rate has barely budged despite this effort.

If there are no jobs, training doesn't matter. Some industries here beg for employees, some have too many. Some states advertise on tv that they need employees, others have no jobs.

Education in and of itself is not the answer as there needs to be demand for it. (as Ocre noted)

Here's the way I put it to my son:

"Education is no guarantee of success. It's only a way to stack the odds in your favor. It's an advantage applying for some jobs where the employer states "Degree preferred" and it's a requirement for others. Internships and experience combined with education are the key to success-employers want people who can make a difference quickly".
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#19
You really think internships matter to McDonalds, Walmart and the local municipal council when they are hiring customer service attendants, shelf stockers, cashiers and garbage collectors?

Heck do you think internships and education matter to Apple when they are hiring Apple Geniuses?! Hint: You parrot the script perfectly if you want to keep the job.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#20
(04-19-2015, 08:39 PM)gstanford Wrote: You really think internships matter to McDonalds, Walmart and the local municipal council when they are hiring customer service attendants, shelf stockers, cashiers and garbage collectors?

We're talking about middle class and up skilled jobs. My advice would be different if my son wanted to be a fast food cook.

(04-19-2015, 08:39 PM)gstanford Wrote: Heck do you think internships and education matter to Apple when they are hiring Apple Geniuses?!  Hint: You parrot the script perfectly if you want to keep the job.

At Apple? LOL if you think education and experience don't matter there, I can't help you.

Sure there are some exceptional coders who might make it, but try to become an engineer, accountant, HR staff there without a degree. A resume' of "I'm a l33t gamer and designed a Warcraft level" would go in the trash.
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#21
Quote:At Apple? LOL if you think education and experience don't matter there, I can't help you.
Did you read the bit where I said as a "apple genius" - ie: someone who works in their retail stores. I've seen inside an AppleCare call centre too - one used to run out of my city. They hired people on minimum wage who followed a script religiously. The only thing that mattered was following the script, education and internship not required.

Quote:We're talking about middle class and up skilled jobs. My advice would be different if my son wanted to be a fast food cook.
No we aren't. Go read the article in the OP again. Dan Price is offering the biggest increases to his lowest paid workers who earn a wage, not a salary.

Your son might have to be a fast food cook if that is all the work that is currently on offer where he lives and he needs money to survive.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#22
(04-19-2015, 07:57 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(04-19-2015, 02:30 PM)gstanford Wrote: Are you trying to imply that Dan Price's employees are uneducated and this is why they started out with lower wages?!

Plenty of people with great educations have low paying jons or no job at all, and the situation will only get worse over time as more and more work becomes automated or outsourced.

Not at all. Dan Price's employees had an average wage of $48K already, which is a middle class wage here. (median household income in the USA was $51K in 2013, so he paid them a middle class wage before this)


(04-19-2015, 02:30 PM)gstanford Wrote: In Australia the previous federal government undertook a big program to ensure everyone receiving welfare went to a trade college ir university and emerged with a certificate in some field (not useless qualifications either, ones targetted towards the skills that employers require).  The unemployment rate has barely budged despite this effort.

If there are no jobs, training doesn't matter. Some industries here beg for employees, some have too many. Some states advertise on tv that they need employees, others have no jobs.

Education in and of itself is not the answer as there needs to be demand for it. (as Ocre noted)

Here's the way I put it to my son:

"Education is no guarantee of success. It's only a way to stack the odds in your favor. It's an advantage applying for some jobs where the employer states "Degree preferred" and it's a requirement for others. Internships and experience combined with education are the key to success-employers want people who can make a difference quickly".

Clearly you are wise enough to pass this invaluable information to your child. The problem is all this new generation where so many kids are getting loans and scholarships who come from homes with parents that don't have a clue. They think school is the answer and be what ever you want to be. They really are so naive.

See, for people like us, we don't have much to worry about. There are plenty of opportunities for people with real experience. I work for one of the most respected companies and don't have to worry about a job. But I can't say that was anything other than a little cunning and a lot of luck. Once you get off the ground, it is so much easier glide. But so many kids never get to even start

You see, you tell your kid the truth. You know how it works and you know the best chances for him. Many kids don't have that, they come from very different homes.
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#23
(04-19-2015, 11:36 PM)ocre Wrote: You see, you tell your kid the truth.  You know how it works and you know the best chances for him.  Many kids don't have that, they come from very different homes.

I've been telling him the truth his whole life because I was - STUPID.

My dad waited tables at a frat house going through college with a dream his son wouldn't have to.

I didn't have to, and what did I do with the gift my dad gave me of a free ride through college? Said "PAAARRRTYYYY!!!" for three and a half years while wasting the money he gave me on a life of hedonism.

When he cut me off, and I paid my own bills, I learned how STUPID I was.

So for my son's whole life I've been guiding him on what I think matters for success:

Made him play every sport at least one session because I think that builds teamwork and a sense of accomplishment. He quit after one season if he didn't like them, but he played baseball, track, basketball for 2-4 years, and has been playing soccer year round for many years. Now he's on the golf team and loves it.

Had him start reading books I read in college when he was 9, now he tests in the top 10% in our state at language arts.

Bought him instruments and lessons, now he plays multiple instruments in band. (guitar and various percussion)

Started taking him to plays, the classics, a few years ago.

He's been active in his church.

Bought him motorcycles and taught him how to drive our boats, and how to use firearms. Told him it's important to be a well rounded person with diverse interests because employers love to hear that besides the standard "I have this degree, that experience". Interviewers want to gauge if you'll fit in with staff.

He wants the lifestyle he has now, knows how to get there.

And if there are no jobs when he gets out of school Greg, I might cash in some retirement and start up my own sandwich shop for him to manage.

As a parent, I have one job until I expire- help him get to a happy life.
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#24
(04-19-2015, 10:58 PM)gstanford Wrote:
Quote:At Apple? LOL if you think education and experience don't matter there, I can't help you.
Did you read the bit where I said as a "apple genius" - ie: someone who works in their retail stores.  I've seen inside an AppleCare call centre too - one used to run out of my city.  They hired people on minimum wage who followed a script religiously.  The only thing that mattered was following the script, education and internship not required.


Quote:We're talking about middle class and up skilled jobs. My advice would be different if my son wanted to be a fast food cook.
No we aren't.  Go read the article in the OP again.  Dan Price is offering the biggest increases to his lowest paid workers who earn a wage, not a salary.

Your son might have to be a fast food cook if that is all the work that is currently on offer where he lives and he needs money to survive.

Sorry I didn't know what "Apple geniuses" are.

Odds are against my son needing money to survive as either my wife or I earn enough for us to live on. We'd rather help him then see him living in a rat hole riding a bus to the Golden Arches.

But the main plan is position him to succeed on his own.
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#25
I saw an article where a guy working in a Pizzeria spent $37,000 to go to school for a computer degree and can't get a job at Geek Squad. Now he is back at the Pizzeria but saddled with a mountain of debt.
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#26
Yep.

What Rollo and Ocre don't explain is that there isn't and endless supply of their types of jobs or opportunities to create an endless supply of them if only people would train and work towards being model citizens.

The reality is their jobs are the minority of the jobs market and unskilled/semi-skilled jobs are the low paid majority.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#27
I think if you read anything i wrote then clearly i have addressed this already.

The guy getting the computer degree, he is probably one of millions whos parents told him, "go to schools for dim puters, thats em wear the big bucks be"

My generation, i saw first hand when i graduated HS in 97. I bet 70% of kids who went to collage or tech, they went for "computers" . Computer repair, IT, networking, etc. Most were looking to cash in with whatever degree or certification they could manage in 2yrs or at the most 3yrs. Well, guess what happened? By the time they graduated, the market was flooded with kids looking for jobs with their "computers" degree. There just was not enough jobs and way too many qualified kids.

I talked about this already.

Right now the US is struggling to fill positions for advanced manufacturing jobs. The days of simple task factor laboring is running out as robots and automation take the industry by storm. There just arent too many people that understand industrial robotics or even CNC. Toyota is investing in programs that help push more kids in this direction. Because an education doesnt mean you will ever have a job. Anyone, any kid from any background can get an education. They can go to collage. This is something truly awesome and very recent. But, if you and ten thousand others get a degree in a area where there are only 1000 needed with those skills.............over 9000 of you and your buddies will have an expensive worthless piece of paper.

As times change, different skills are needed. Each year is different from the last. As the majority swing in one direction, they leave holes in others. An education doesnt mean you will get a good job, that takes some skill and sometimes even luck. The smarter you are about it, the better chances you have at succeeding.

As for me, I didnt know anything about robots but was very good at programming logic for industrial machines. My previous job we built most of the machines right in house. This allowed us flexibility and speed, most of the machines functioned nearly identical but the parts or application would change. I never even went to school specifically for PLC programming. But my background and area i lived in all set me in this direction. My company paid for my PLC classes. But by that time i had learned everything i needed to know to do what i needed there. When that placed closed down, I eventually ended up at toyota. This is where all my skills come together in some strange and cosmic way. From there i learn robotics and advanced manufacturing.

I dont build machines but now I am responsible for continuous improvement. Take existing processes and equipment and improve, revamp, and sometimes completely reinvent. My programming and electronics/electrical backgrounds brought me there, but it was my drive and determination that took me further and further. I have a great career now but i just always followed my gut and my heart
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#28
I've spent many years programming Omron's and Fanuc PLC's. I worked at Bystronic as well. Actually pretty much brought the Company to the U.S. Started the U.S. Engineering lab but of course after I set it up they brought one of their own over from Germany. Before I did all that they were just shipping everything over from there.
The many thanks I got, not.
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#29
(04-20-2015, 11:34 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I saw an article where a guy working in a Pizzeria spent $37,000 to go to school for a computer degree and can't get a job at Geek Squad. Now he is back at the Pizzeria but saddled with a mountain of debt.

This is what's known as "anecdotal evidence".

Are there people who pursue training and/or education and can't find a job in their field, maybe for years?

Sure.

What do you think their chances are compared to people that don't have the training?

When they get jobs where they are underemployed, what do you think their chances of getting jobs in their field that open up within the company are, or advancing to other positions, compared to guys that have no education?

(i.e. Let's say Creig and I both go to work in the mail room at a branch of GE. I have my BA-Psych, BS-Business, Creig has 6 years experience working in mail rooms. Who will have more opportunities to advance within GE if we both are good employees?)

There are no guarantees, a person can only stack their odds as best they can. When I found my BA-Psychology was not working out for me as I hoped, I went back to school and picked up a BS-Business.
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#30
(04-21-2015, 05:58 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(04-20-2015, 11:34 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote: I saw an article where a guy working in a Pizzeria spent $37,000 to go to school for a computer degree and can't get a job at Geek Squad. Now he is back at the Pizzeria but saddled with a mountain of debt.

This is what's known as "anecdotal evidence".

Are there people who pursue training and/or education and can't find a job in their field, maybe for years?

Sure.

What do you think their chances are compared to people that don't have the training?

When they get jobs where they are underemployed, what do you think their chances of getting jobs in their field that open up within the company are, or advancing to other positions, compared to guys that have no education?

Once upon a time it may have been "anecdotal evidence" but the news is filled with horror stories of a large portion of the population now in the same boat of saddled with huge college debt and lack of either a job to pay the debt or got job that pay is so low no hope of ever repaying the debt.
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#31
(04-22-2015, 05:35 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: Once upon a time it may have been "anecdotal evidence" but the news is filled with horror stories of a large portion of the population now in the same boat of saddled with huge college debt and lack of either a job to pay the debt or got job that pay is so low no hope of ever repaying the debt.

Unfortunately there aren't many alternatives Dave.

Statistics show college grads earn more on average.

What I said about getting jobs that require the paper is true.

What I said about getting jobs where the paper is preferred is true.

What I said about promotion from within is true.

So even though it can temporarily (or even permanently) fail to help, what are the alternatives?

"School of hard knocks" where a person's diminished flight risk means lower wages are likely, and promotion is less likely?

I can spend $80-$100K on my son's degree and give him a chance to win the game, but can I buy him a business with $80-$100K?

This is the way our game is rigged and played, not like we can change it.
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#32
We have hundreds of fanuc and omron PLCs, drives, and controllers. We have about 100 fanuc robots with on top of that. All working together from one machine to the next. fully automated processes with minimal human intervention, other than oversight for quality and inspection.

I have some videos I have been meaning to post of a little robot show i put together for family day. Of course it was all for entertainment but to put it all together from scratch, it turned out to be a pretty large task to pull off in the short time frame I was given. I had this vision and was let loose on the project. It turned out to be something i really really enjoyed putting together. I dont know if there is anything out there like it.

I guess i need upload the videos........it turned out to be a huge hit on family day.
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#33
http://www.smh.com.au/business/i-cant-de...mwtby.html

Quote:Telstra outgoing chief executive David Thodey has said his high salary is indefensible when compared to those of other employees, and called on Australia's companies to shrink the gulf between their top executives and worst-paid staff.

Speaking to Fairfax Media on his last official day in Telstra's top job, Mr Thodey was frank about his high wages. He has earned over $27 million in cash and vested shares in the three years to July 2014 - $12.84 million of which was during financial year 2014 alone.

But unlike some of his fellow CEOs, Mr Thodey is not seen as a flashy spender and continues to own and use a Toyota Corolla as his main car. He has also brought Telstra back from the brink of failure to its highest share price in 14 years.

Quote:"I think there's a real issue with income disparity between what an average person gets and some of the really big salaries."

While some global companies such as Facebook and Apple have locked their success around key executives such as Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs, Mr Thodey said the days of the all-knowing CEO were long gone.

"Leadership has changed in the world and the days of the all-knowing CEO is just not real," he said. "I'm a great advocate of values-based leadership ... and our values drive our behaviour more than rules."
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#34
So Thodey says the salaries are wrong, but kept his for years?

I'm sure his employees would be happy to accept it as back pay, but probably shouldn't hold their breath waiting.
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#35
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/11/elon-m...-the-jobs/

Quote:Spacentrepreneur Elon Musk thinks we'll eventually need a basic universal income because of "automation."

"People will have time to do other things, more complex things, more interesting things," he told CNBC. "Certainly more leisure time. And then we gotta figure how we integrate with a world and future with a vast AI."

"Ultimately, I think there has to be some improved symbiosis with digital super intelligence," the Tesla CEO said.

What will happen if robots steal our jobs? It's a question that's been on the minds of both the proletariat and the bourgeoisie since the advent of artificial intelligence. Robots have already eliminated some factory jobs, but even so-called "creative" work is now threatened, with media companies using AI to generate news stories.

"There is a pretty good chance we end up with a universal basic income, or something like that," Musk reasoned.

Regardless of whether automation replaces human labour, the benefits of a basic universal income would be incredible. The idea that everyone would receive enough resources to be able to survive without working would solve the problem of homelessness and poverty and also pivot our cultural and economic identity. In a world with guaranteed income, we would be just as defined by our leisure as our labour.

Quote:Musk believes basic universal income is inevitable, but who knows what the weird jobs of the future hold? If Musk's right, capitalism's ruthless grip on the world might loosen a little. If only.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#36
(04-16-2015, 05:53 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: I've got $100 that says Ben is right, and not even 50 companies follow this guy's crazy lead in the next year.

GStan, it looks like I was right and you were wrong again.

Not only have I not heard of 50 other companies doing this, I haven't heard of 1.

Who would have guessed this would not catch on? Usually people love to give away their money.

Here we are, one year and seven months after I posted the above and it didn't start the trend you thought it would GStan.
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#37
http://www.smh.com.au/world/for-the-firs...srcuo.html

http://www.smh.com.au/action/printArticle?id=1015764432

Quote:Maids, drivers, nannies, and cooks in India are experiencing unusual politeness from their employers. Beyond the work they do every day, they suddenly have another use – to launder the undeclared cash which the rich have been hoarding in steel wardrobes, under the mattress and in under-bed storage.

This sudden outbreak of niceness is the outcome of India's current crackdown on "black money" - income in the form of cash that has not been declared to the tax authorities. On November 8, the day before Sharma's employer became a lamb, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi scrapped 500 and 1000-rupee notes to root out corruption and force more Indians into the tax net.

In one fell swoop, the tens of millions of rupees that the rich kept at home in these denominations became worthless. If they deposit the money in the bank tax officials will pounce, imposing staggering penalties and taxes.

However until December 30, each Indian is allowed to deposit a smallish sum of 250,000 rupees in such defunct notes in their bank accounts without questions being asked. That is why the rich need the service of the poor.

Sharma and others like him have been implored by suddenly humble employers to deposit the amount in their accounts by the deadline - to be returned to their employers later.

"I refused him. I don't want to get into trouble later if someone asks me how I got this money when I'm only a driver," Sharma said.

Quote:"I'm an ordinary man and I'm suffering hardship too. I was in a long queue on Saturday. But it's worth it. The rich need to be punished for being greedy. I am savouring the moment," said a smiling Mohan Kishore, who sells fresh coconut water on a South Delhi street.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#38
(11-19-2016, 07:18 AM)gstanford Wrote: http://www.smh.com.au/world/for-the-firs...srcuo.html

http://www.smh.com.au/action/printArticle?id=1015764432

Quote:Maids, drivers, nannies, and cooks in India are experiencing unusual politeness from their employers. Beyond the work they do every day, they suddenly have another use – to launder the undeclared cash which the rich have been hoarding in steel wardrobes, under the mattress and in under-bed storage.

This sudden outbreak of niceness is the outcome of India's current crackdown on "black money" - income in the form of cash that has not been declared to the tax authorities. On November 8, the day before Sharma's employer became a lamb, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi scrapped 500 and 1000-rupee notes to root out corruption and force more Indians into the tax net.

In one fell swoop, the tens of millions of rupees that the rich kept at home in these denominations became worthless. If they deposit the money in the bank tax officials will pounce, imposing staggering penalties and taxes.

However until December 30, each Indian is allowed to deposit a smallish sum of 250,000 rupees in such defunct notes in their bank accounts without questions being asked. That is why the rich need the service of the poor.

Sharma and others like him have been implored by suddenly humble employers to deposit the amount in their accounts by the deadline - to be returned to their employers later.

"I refused him. I don't want to get into trouble later if someone asks me how I got this money when I'm only a driver," Sharma said.

Quote:"I'm an ordinary man and I'm suffering hardship too. I was in a long queue on Saturday. But it's worth it. The rich need to be punished for being greedy. I am savouring the moment," said a smiling Mohan Kishore, who sells fresh coconut water on a South Delhi street.

And what does this have to do with the $70K a year for everyone guy?
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#39
Its my thread I'll post what I please in it.

It is a wonderfully entertaining tale of woe for indian rich bastards and I'm glad the poor get sit back and snigger at them. The Indian PM was wise to bring in the law that brought this about.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#40
(11-19-2016, 11:07 AM)gstanford Wrote: Its my thread I'll post what I please in it.

It is a wonderfully entertaining tale of woe for indian rich bastards and I'm glad the poor get sit back and snigger at them.  The Indian PM was wise to bring in the law that brought this about.

How admirable, you revel in the government stealing money people have earned for their families. You are a class act, GStan.
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