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Texas Governor Deploys National Guard To Stave Off Obama Takeover
#81
The problem is that domestic vehicles tend to be horribly unreliable. If they could make cars that could even reasonably compete I would buy one. My 2010 elantra has been bulletproof. Very cheap to run, plus they gave me 0% financing for 7 years.
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#82
In Canada most people buy economy cars. The Civic has been the most popular for a very long time.
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#83
(05-16-2015, 06:09 AM)SickBeast Wrote: In Canada most people buy economy cars. The Civic has been the most popular for a very long time.

The same is true in the USA as well, I'm very sure of that despite anything that Rollo says to the contrary.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#84
Quote:If everyone followed my example, the middle class in America wouldn't be shrinking. Too much "Buy a cheap Toyota" going on.

Why Rollo, I thought you had been trying to tell us that nobody in the USA ever bought "crackerbox" Toyota vehicles?!

Toyota does sell american built cars - they are one of the largest and most successful car manufacturing companies in the USA, certainly more successful than a lot of "pure" American car companies have been.

You are a bigoted fool!

Just wait until the chinese start selling their GreatWall pickup trucks into the USA - there will be nothing left of the domestic truck market in very short order.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#85
(05-16-2015, 07:48 AM)gstanford Wrote:
Quote:If everyone followed my example, the middle class in America wouldn't be shrinking. Too much "Buy a cheap Toyota" going on.

Why Rollo, I thought you had been trying to tell us that nobody in the USA ever bought "crackerbox" Toyota vehicles?!

Toyota does sell american built cars - they are one of the largest and most successful car manufacturing companies in the USA, certainly more successful than a lot of "pure" American car companies have been.

You are a bigoted fool!

Just wait until the chinese start selling their GreatWall pickup trucks into the USA - there will be nothing left of the domestic truck market in very short order.

Yeah sure they will Greg. Toyota and Nissan, who I've actually heard of, can't crack the US pickup market but Great Wall will.

You'll never get it. We don't buy American because we think Toyota and Nissan are bad trucks, we buy American to buy American. Perhaps you don't understand terms like "trade deficit" but I do.
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#86
Oh we Australians understand the term "trade deficit" very well indeed. We have one of the smallest in the Western World. The USA has one of the largest.

China is a major trading partner with Australia, but we get the better end of the deal. For every dollar we spend importing chinese goods the chinese spend two dollars importing ours.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#87
You should understand why I support American business then.
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#88
Our car plants are shutting down here, too small a market. Will be gone altogether by 2017. We don't manufacture a lot anymore. We are blessed with abundant mineral resources, natural gas and coal resources though, which china is hungry for and have many fine foods Asians desire though. Not to mention our universities and tourism.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#89
Was a thread merge done? That causes the latest activity plugin to make multiples.
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#90
I moved to posts from another thread where they were off-topic into this one (see moderator log), and yes, discovered that it set the activity plugin bug off.

I think this thread has just about run its course though.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#91
(05-16-2015, 09:31 AM)gstanford Wrote: Our car plants are shutting down here, too small a market.  Will be gone altogether by 2017.  We don't manufacture a lot anymore.  We are blessed with abundant mineral resources, natural gas and coal resources though, which china is hungry for and have many fine foods Asians desire though.  Not to mention our universities and tourism.

We NEED to manufacture because our middle class is shrinking.

There was a time when I was young a lot of what we consumed was made here by Americans. People who didn't have specialized training (most people) could work for a living wage and their kids could choose whether they wanted the same or to get the training. People bought homes and cars, kids grew up with a sense of security that the system worked and they would have a good life no matter what path they chose.

Not so much in the aftermath of trade agreements and outsourcing. There are still opportunities here, but very few for the a middle class life for the HS grad only.

So I will NEVER drive a Toyota, I don't care if they beat GM in every metric and cost $5000 less. The country has been good to me and my family, the very least I can do is support the country's businesses. Don't care if those Toyotas are built here, if people stopped buying them the demand would shift to American firms and the wealth would stay in America. Kids would have the choice of "I can go to work at the car factory and have a middle class life, or be a gang banger" not "I can make sandwiches for those rich f*ckers and starve or be a gang banger and make some real bank".

I can't change the market myself, but I can be an example and a daily advertisement.

Works to some extent.

Just last night I was driving my son to golf team practice and he said, "I did a project for money class today where we had to budget for buying our "dream car". I picked a GMC Sierra as my dream car, these things cost fifty thousand dollars with good options?!" Every time some kid/person tells me how cool the Challenger or my truck is that is a person who might buy one some day and support American industry like me.
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#92
Quote:here was a time when I was young a lot of what we consumed was made here by Americans. People who didn't have specialized training (most people) could work for a living wage and their kids could choose whether they wanted the same or to get the training. People bought homes and cars, kids grew up with a sense of security that the system worked and they would have a good life no matter what path they chose.

Not so much in the aftermath of trade agreements and outsourcing. There are still opportunities here, but very few for the a middle class life for the HS grad only.
You know why it all went pear shaped? Because your rich "buddies" (don't kid yourself - the real rich don't even know Rollo exists) wanted to screw American workers and unions over and moved all their manufacturing bases off shore.

And you are dumb enough to think they are nice people who should be supported.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#93
(05-16-2015, 05:48 PM)gstanford Wrote:
Quote:here was a time when I was young a lot of what we consumed was made here by Americans. People who didn't have specialized training (most people) could work for a living wage and their kids could choose whether they wanted the same or to get the training. People bought homes and cars, kids grew up with a sense of security that the system worked and they would have a good life no matter what path they chose.

Not so much in the aftermath of trade agreements and outsourcing. There are still opportunities here, but very few for the a middle class life for the HS grad only.
You know why it all went pear shaped?  Because your rich "buddies" (don't kid yourself - the real rich don't even know Rollo exists) wanted to screw American workers and unions over and moved all their manufacturing bases off shore.

And you are dumb enough to think they are nice people who should be supported.

And yet I enjoy living somewhere in the top 10% of households in my country, hold two bachelors degrees, and even if I lost my job I'd be better off than most people.

How about you Greg?

Who's the "dumb" one?
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#94
My life is comfortable and we live happily. What more is there to want? It's not like you are going to be able to bury your pickup truck, your house or your money with you when you die. They are merely material things.

What would you do if a Nepal style disaster struck your suburb and wiped out your belongings and your bank went bankrupt taking your savings with it?

Somehow I doubt you would be as resilient as the nepalese....
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#95
Rollo loves to brag about how much money he makes and how much stuff he has. If I lived where he does I would probably have just as much if not more. It's all relative. My house cost $400000 for a bungalow. Pretty much anywhere else in North America I would have a mansion for that much. I can guarantee that the quality of life where I live is much higher than where he is, though. I'm sure gstanford has an excellent quality of life as well.
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#96
Rollo would need to be a millionaire if he wished to come to Australia and live in Sydney. 1 million Australian is the going price for a normal house there.

Even in little old Devonport where I am you will be paying around 300K for a house. My parents bought the house I grew up in for $12K, my grandparents built their house for 5K pounds (before we went metric with money).

I don't need to brag about my possessions, and such bragging doesn't make you look powerful, smart and influential -- quite the opposite in fact. Flaunting wealth is crass.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#97
I agree. He says that it's normal for Americans to flaunt their wealth yet he is the only person I have seen doing it online.
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#98
(05-16-2015, 08:21 PM)gstanford Wrote:  Flaunting wealth is crass.

I'm just pointing out that for a guy you keep calling "dumb" I seem to have figured out all the things in life usually associated with "smart" people: higher education, on good side of corporate life, have put together a secure and comfortable life for my family, and I have a very nice work/life balance.

If noting stuff like that is crass, what is repeatedly calling people names like a child on a school yard Greg? Genteel?

I think not.

You're kind of like Apoppin, telling people if they don't adopt your ways or think like you they must be "fools" or "dumb".
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#99
I think that more people should be like Greg and Mark actually, they are both very nice people who contribute a lot to the forum. What you say may be true, Rollo, you may have obtained wealth and a successful life but unfortunately you have not had similar results in terms of your online presence. You continue to attack the most helpful people on here. Not nice.
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(05-17-2015, 04:49 AM)SickBeast Wrote: I think that more people should be like Greg and Mark actually, they are both very nice people who contribute a lot to the forum. What you say may be true, Rollo, you may have obtained wealth and a successful life but unfortunately you have not had similar results in terms of your online presence. You continue to attack the most helpful people on here. Not nice.

I haven't obtained what I would consider wealth.

I have obtained what I would consider security and happiness, which are far more valuable.

The two you mention attack me regularly, so "nice and helpful" aren't my online experience with them.
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It goes both ways, you drive the two of them crazy.
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(05-17-2015, 04:24 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: You're kind of like Apoppin, telling people if they don't adopt your ways or think like you they must be "fools" or "dumb".
Yeah, only nowhere near as aggressive as Trollpoppin. And at least Greg is stable, unlike Trollpoppin who will flip flop if you oppose him on one point long enough.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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Rollo,
Toyota builds the most American made cars and have a direct influence on hundreds of thousands of American jobs.  When I read what you said about the challenger, I did start to chuckle.

Toyota directly employs about the same amount of people in the USA as Chrysler.  But that is only scratching the surface.  See, since they make the most American made vehicles, they have factories all over the country building parts for their vehicles. From exhaust to cup holders, many of these plants build parts for no other company.  Toyota is the reason these plants exist.

http://www.anewdayanewme.com/ford-vs-toy...ican-jobs/

Quote:David Muir said that Cars.com advises to use the following formula if you want to know how many American jobs are created from the car you may be considering purchasing.

Are the cars assembled here in America?
The Toyota plant says yes. It takes more than 6000 American workers to build that Camry.
The Ford plant says yes. It took 2250 workers to build that Ford Escape.
How much of the car contains American parts?
Toyota Camry – 80%.
The Ford Escape – 65%
Tip! – It is required on new cars to reveal the percentage of foreign parts and American parts in the car. Look for a sticker that gives this information.
How many cars were sold in a given year?
Toyota Camry – 328,000 cars sold last year.
The Ford Escape – 200,000 cars sold last year.
So using that formula, the car that created the most American jobs would be the Toyota Camry.

This is just one example but you should also know that Ford has a larger marketshare yet toyota has an impact on more American jobs. Another thing you should know about toyota, during 2008 and the massive hit automakers took, while GM was cutting jobs and cutting pay, toyota did not lay a single person off. GM flew to Washington in private jets to lobby billions of tax payers money, toyota took not a dime. You should already know toyota didn't ask or take one penny when the economy crashed, but I doubt you knew anything about them not laying off even when they went into the red in the USA markets.

Toyota dug deep and got thru the years of hardships. They forged thru and stuck with it. They did not abandon Americans or their jobs when the times got tough. They didn't threaten or strong arm the government with a too big to fail campaign. Let me ask you, how could toyota do these things and come thru the dark times to now shining bright while GM could not. GM, your beloved US America company that sells way more cars in the US than toyota, why did they not have any money to get thru the hard times? Why did the is auto workers from Detroit suffer so much? GM was making billions over billions, what happened and why could they not take care of their own when times got tough?

I really don't care what you buy. But your,"I smile when I hear kids say Chrysler".......now that is funny.

Especially when toyota is bringing more jobs to the USA while the big 3 are becoming less and less American made everyday. The big 3 are getting more and more parts from other countries. They are not keeping the money in the USA. Proof is right in front of you. They threaten to shut down instead of loosing a dime, go to congress and get crazy huge bail outs. Yeah, that American money they get doesn't do as much good as you seem to think
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Rollo will just come in and deny it all and say he wants his big shiny toy anyway!
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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I understand that Toyota builds cars here, and that "The Big Three" build cars elsewhere.

RAM is now owned by Fiat, and Italian company.

Nonetheless, I purchase Big Three vehicles because:
A. They still employ a lot of Americans
B. The profits stay in the USA
C. The money pays for the retirement benefits of US auto workers
D. To a much lesser extent, buying a foreign pick up truck "just isn't done"

My last 5 GM pick ups were built in Fort Wayne, Indiana and I am helping my Midwestern neighbors have a job.

Also, when we bought the Challenger in 2013, Chrysler was primarily owned by Cerberus Capital (a New York based investment group) and VEBA (the United Auto Workers retirement trust).

So they were an American firm at the time.
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LOL! What did I say would happen in my last post?

A. Toyota employs more
B. No they don't as Ocre explained. He works in the industry, you don't.
C. I doubt it.
D. LOL!
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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(05-17-2015, 08:09 PM)gstanford Wrote: LOL!  What did I say would happen in my last post?

A. Toyota employs more
I did not say they did not. I said US automakers employ a lot of Americans. (they do)

(05-17-2015, 08:09 PM)gstanford Wrote: B. No they don't as Ocre explained.  He works in the industry, you don't.
No offense to Ocre, and no disagreement with what he said, but what YOU just said is ridiculous. You think the guy stocking shelves at WalMart necessarily knows more about retail business than other people?
Ocre didn't prove profits from Big Three auto sales don't stay in the USA. He illustrated that Japanese automakers and their supply chain are also a big part of our economy. There's a difference for those of us who can think.

(05-17-2015, 08:09 PM)gstanford Wrote: C. I doubt it.
Doubt it all you like, but again, it's pretty well known to those of us who live here a big chunk of Big Three car prices is retirement benefits to American workers.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/...nt-prices/

Quote:Consequently, on top of any discount, each GM car or truck made this year will carry about $1,900 in pension and retiree health care costs, the Post said, citing Stephen Girsky, an industry analyst for Morgan Stanley.





(05-17-2015, 08:09 PM)gstanford Wrote: D. LOL!
Laugh all you like, but again, here in the USA, men just don't buy foreign pick up trucks to date. (at least not in any significant numbers)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars...o/1897987/

This article pretty much puts the smack down on your wildly inaccurate ranting. Not only does is show how very small Toyota and Nissan's piece of the truck market is, it also shows that I was right about the most popular vehicles in America being over $30K, not your $20K BS:

Quote:Transaction prices:

$20,000-$29,999 . . . 10.3%
$30,000-$39,999 . . . 56.4%
$40,000-$49,999 . . . 24.6%
$50,000-$59,999 . . . 8.8%

AND it proves my saying your "stack'em high sell'em cheap" doesn't apply in the USA with this tidbit of info:

Quote:For the domestics, it's about a lot more than pride. Ford F-Series, the nation's best-selling vehicle for decades, accounts for two-thirds of Ford Motor's U.S. profit, estimates Adam Jonas, analyst for Morgan Stanley.

Ford entire success is built on their full size trucks, not Yaris-esque toy cars like the Fiesta.

I'll tell you another cultural difference: In the USA you won't see many successful men driving a subcompact car. Again, it just isn't done. We're not Europe, we're not Asia, we're not Australia. In the USA, men with two dimes to rub together drive a truck/sports car/SUV, or grudgingly drive a full size sedan or minivan because they have to haul kids.
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I am not saying you should want or buy a Toyota truck. I am not to fond of them myself.

Just saying, if you buy ta toyota truck, not only is it assembled here but it is assembled with parts that are also made in the USA. That is the part i want you to see. The big three, sure they employ people and assemble here but a cars are made up of hundreds of thousands of components. Assembly is where all these parts come together. You are missing the significant bulk of the picture. Something US automakers would never ever tell you.

See, not too long ago, things were very different. Every car built here was built here, not just assembled. Most every part, every component, was made in the USA. Through the years, they have quietly been shipping these jobs over seas. It is easy when they are "expanding" into new markets in other parts of the world. Today, ford assembles cars here, they werent quite built here. Maybe 50% but it varies per model. For GM, there are models that are worse.

They arent made in the US, they are assembled in the US.

Also, I have already contested your "keeping the money in the US" claim once.
See, all these parts that used to be made here, they are made in places where labor is much cheaper now. Guess where how that came to be? The money went, it didnt stay here.

Finally, I will bring up the bail out once again. If the money "stayed in the US", what happened? Why did they cut so many peoples jobs and why did they need a bailout? They made billions and billions but when times got tough, they strong armed the government for bailout money. They wasnt willing to spend a dime when it came down to it. And many of their issues where self induced, their finance departments giving loans to anyone who walked in.

You cannot tell me that out of the billions GM made, they couldnt afford to take care of their own when times got tough. Are you really proud of that?
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I get the American made parts aspect of your position Ocre and don't disagree import manufacturers provide a lot of jobs here.

There are other sides to it though.

A couple thousand of every Big Three car purchased helps fund UAW retiree benefits.

While you are correct GM uses a lot of parts from Mexico, the companies who own those factories in Mexico are based in Detroit and also employ a lot of Americans and bring a lot of money into the USA.
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You honestly think they employ Americans in Mexico?
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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(05-23-2015, 07:05 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: You honestly think they employ Americans in Mexico?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_Automotive

Quote:of whom around 5,000 are in the United States.

Delphi is a spinoff of GM, still employs 5000 people. While their HQ is in England now for tax purposes, they're still based in Detroit.

So while it is true that 30+ percent of the parts in the Sierra I drive (not the drive train) were built in foreign countries, one owner of the company that builds the parts is GM.

(so the money isn't all "leaving the country", it's helping an American Company profit)
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Rollo Wrote:There are other sides to it though.

A couple thousand of every Big Three car purchased helps fund UAW retiree benefits.

Why should americans (or anyone else for that matter) care about propping up UAW retiree benefits?! These are the same lazy workers who couldn't (and still mostly cannot) build a reliable well made vehicle to save their lives! Just like British Leyland and vast parts of the european car market. Most western car workers wouldn't know what quality control was if it king hit them in the face! The exception is the car plants opened in western countries by Japanese/asian vehicle makers.

I find it quite hilarious how Rollo keeps prattling endlessly on about his beloved pickup trucks, he forgets the role they played in the American Automotive industry meltdown and ignores that GM are openly flouting promises they made to the American people in the wake of the crisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_...E2%80%9310

http://alienbabeltech.com/forum/newreply...plyto=1827

Quote:The automotive industry was weakened by a substantial increase in the prices of automotive fuels linked to the 2003-2008 energy crisis which discouraged purchases of sport utility vehicles (SUVs) and pickup trucks which have low fuel economy. The popularity and relatively high profit margins of these vehicles had encouraged the American "Big Three" automakers, General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler to make them their primary focus. With fewer fuel-efficient models to offer to consumers, sales began to slide. By 2008, the situation had turned critical as the credit crunch placed pressure on the prices of raw materials.
Quote:The Big Three faced criticism for their lineups, which were seen to be irresponsible in light of rising fuel prices. North American consumers turned to smaller, cheaper, more fuel-efficient imports from Japan and Europe.

Quote:GM ad an apology and a recommitment

On December 8, 2008, General Motors unveiled a new advertisement where the company apologized for disappointing and violating the trust of American consumers. They pledged to make a commitment to regain focus on core brands and away from pickups and SUVs, declaring they needed to make such an unfiltered statement "since quite a bit of media commentary has not kept pace with our actual progress to transform the company."

Quote:The 2005 Harbour Report estimated that Toyota's lead in benefits cost advantage amounted to $350 US to $500 US per vehicle over North American manufacturers. The United Auto Workers agreed to a two-tier wage in recent 2007 negotiations, something which the Canadian Auto Workers has so far refused. Jared Bernstein, the chief economist of Vice President Joe Biden, noted in an interview with WWJ-AM in Detroit that most of the 2007 contract concessions apply only to new hires, while older workers "still benefit from contracts that were signed a long time ago." However, only 30% of parts used by the Big Three employ union labor, with 70% sourced from non-union labor.

Quote:Hourly wages and benefits

Gary Burtless of the Brookings Institution argued that hourly wages were similar between the Big Three and the transplants. "The basic hourly wage received by a UAW worker in a Big Three plant is close to that received by a Toyota or Honda worker in a U.S. plant. The UAW-negotiated wage was roughly $28 an hour in 2007. For new workers, the hourly wage was lower at $14 an hour; senior workers made more money. The major cost difference between UAW members and employees in foreign-nameplate factories in the U.S. comes in fringe benefits. The UAW has been one of the more successful American unions in fighting for generous pensions and health benefits for its members."

Dan Ikenson of the Cato Institute argued that "total compensation is the cost of labor to the companies, and for GM it is about $73 per hour and for Toyota about $48. The average cost differential between the Big Three and all the foreign nameplate companies is about $30 per hour. That's huge." His computation includes all labor-related costs (e.g.., wages, healthcare, and pension—for both current workers and retirees.)

Andrew Sorkin of the New York Times indicated that GM and Chrysler pay $10–20 more per hour than transplants; this was vigorously disputed by David Cole of the Center for Automotive Research.

Average annual wages for production workers at the Big Three were $67,480 in 2007, and $81,940 for skilled workers. In Canada, GM’s 2008 average labor costs (including both wages and benefits) were $69 per hour, and Toyota's at $48 per hour, with similar productivity.

According to the Heritage Foundation, the ratio of retirees to workers varies across the Big Three. For each active worker at GM, there were 3.8 retirees or dependents in 2006. At Chrysler, there were 2.0 and at Ford there were 1.6. This means the legacy labor cost burden for GM is significantly greater than its competitors.

Peter Morici, a professor at the University of Maryland, College Park’s school of business, testified that the extremely high labor and product development costs will keep the Big Three from developing the high quality vehicles needed to become profitable and surviving.

The Asian-owned companies' U.S. employees are mainly non-unionized; the Big Three are bound by contracts with the UAW.

According to the UAW, labor cost represented 8.4% of the total cost of manufacturing and selling an automobile in 2006. "The vast majority of the costs of producing a vehicle and transporting it to a dealership and preparing it for sale – including design, engineering, marketing, raw materials, executive compensation and other costs – are not related to direct or indirect manufacturing labor."

Jared Bernstein, the chief economist of Vice President Joe Biden, noted in an April 7, 2009 interview that most of the concessions that the UAW made in the 2007 contract applied only to new hires. Older workers "still benefit from contracts that were signed a long time ago."

Quote:Delphi, which was spun off from GM in 1999, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after the UAW refused to cut their wages and GM is expected to be liable for a $7 billion shortfall.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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Grstan,

you cant be serious. Lazy workers? You qare taking it way too far.

in manufacturing, people just do what they are trained. Reliability has been great for Chevy and ford trucks

Also, the Tacoma is not a truck i even like. I like ford, Chevy, and Chrysler trucks so much better/

I drive a Lincoln SUV by the way

Rollo,
I am extremely disappointed in GM for demanding money when times got tough. I guess that is my beef with the situation. I trully think they should have been able to pull thru without demanding money. They should have pulled from their own reserves but they would rather shut down and throw all their employees under the bus than sacrifice a dime out of pocket, when times got tough that is.

toyota lost money and learned to be stronger. They knew they would loose but kept forging forward with faith that things would get better. They done so much more for the common good. It is really something i respect so much. But even still, i would much rather have a ford truck than a toyota. Just cause I think they have better style in trucks. It is comes down to looks and style to me.

btw, i have a Lincoln SUV. I bought preowned with cash. 100% own it.
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Like I said, it isn't a USA only problem.

With the exception of only a few, mostly high-end European brands most cars other than those coming from asia are poorly built with poor reliability. Any cars these manage to sell with decent reliability are inevitably rebrands of an asian car that they resell.

At the same time the workers doing the poor work are highly pampered. Benefits, bells, whistles and perks out the wazoo.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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I dont think toyota reliability has much at all to do with their employees at manufacturing plants.

That is a crazy notion.

It is the engineering.

And i also dont see where lazy fits in the discussion at all. I believe strongly that some car manufactures engineered their cars to last longer but this was their strategy, their plan of attack in the global markets. US automakers were not lazy, they just had a different plan. You know, sales.

It doesnt matter too much today though as the situation has changed drastically. All of the automakers have stepped up and reliability is a priority. That is not saying that every car will last forever. But most cars are very reliable now. Chevy trucks, for example, I have seen many fly past 200k and still run like a top. My neighbor has 315k on his truck and you would never know it unless you looked. It runs and sounds great
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