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A question for the ABT "social justice" crew
#1
It is indeed true that there are people in every society that have much, much more than working folks like us.

How is that any of our concern?

Some here seem to think this money is "owed" to them.

By what right?

The "those rich guys should share" right?

I'm honestly stupefied buy the apparently global "rich guys should be helping us" movement. Shouldn't we be helping ourselves?
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#2
In society, everyone helps each other. That is the whole point of establishing and maintaining communities, otherwise we would all still be wandering the earth by ourselves or in small family units.

When that happens (everyone helps each other) mankind is able to progress. The focus is on improving society/communities as a whole, not individuals inside the community.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#3
The rich will still be rich due to these things called compounding interest and "money talks". The rest of us could use better pay to use for this thing called saving money.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#4
(05-28-2015, 05:11 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: It is indeed true that there are people in every society that have much, much more than working folks like us.

How is that any of our concern?

Some here seem to think this money is "owed" to them.

By what right?

The "those rich guys should share" right?

I'm honestly stupefied buy the apparently global "rich guys should be helping us" movement. Shouldn't we be helping ourselves?

Very sad for this individual and those like him.

Mankind is doomed to forever repeat history because of people like them.
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#5
(05-28-2015, 09:32 AM)dmcowen674 Wrote: Very sad for this individual and those like him.

Mankind is doomed to forever repeat history because of people like them.

The rich must give away their assets so the poor don't attack them?

What does that say for the poor? That we're mad dogs who should be shot?

The rich have just as much right to keep their assets as you and I do Dave, actually more.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/

The top 1% already pay half of the federal tax. If they leave the country, the USA is bankrupted. The bottom 60% pay 2% of federal tax. If they leave, the country becomes a prosperous paradise.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102060934

Wealthy give $25m on average to charity, slobs like us throw in $100 and think we're actually making a "big contribution".

http://www.forbes.com/companies/koch-industries/

Koch brothers employ 100,000 people McCowen, Rollo, Steel Crysis, Sick Beast, Gstanford - 0.
If a person is looking for a job, who matters more to them? The rich? Or us?

This whole idea "There are rich people, so they should share because no one needs more than $300K a year to live on" is laughable.

Ever try to build a paper products factory with your $300K?

The "revolution" that needs to happen is a shift in subsidy programs.

We sent all of our low skills jobs overseas and left a vast class of welfare recipients. I say they are a vast class of low wage laborers, whose work could not only support them, but also the rest of us. (and by this I mean their paid production labor would create other administrative jobs, not that they would directly support us)

Instead of being a drain on the economy they could be part of it. If they don't like the low wage jobs they could learn better skills like we all did, and there would be more skilled jobs available.
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#6
You were on the old ABT forums telling us how wonderful it was that all the low skill jobs went overseas, that the people here (USA) didn't deserve them. Served the greedy unions and upstart peasants right for expecting more.

[Image: Oliver_Twist2008_LRG.jpg]

Those low skill jobs will never come back, they went to low cost labor countries first and they will go to the robots next. Perhaps the robots will be in the USA.

Same thing is happening further up the chain. Middle management has been all but made obsolete by software, even the receptionist isn't safe anymore with robo-calling, siri, cortana etc. Probably a good thing too since the poor receptionist is running the entire office by herself anyway, doing payroll, invoicing, bookkeeping, report writing, written correspondence -- everything that it took a team of 3 or more to do when I was in high school.

The rich will soon have to pay all the taxes no one else (except for military, emergency services, plumbers, garbage collectors) will have a job and it will because the rich automated their jobs. As I posted in the other thread, the first self-driving trucks are already here being tested.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2gO4DKVpa8

You'll like this guy Greg
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#8
hold on to your guns poor people, if the government takes them, you will have nothing to fight with.

I think in the future, the people will revolt and civil unrest will take back this country from the super rich.
I may not see it, mabe not even my kids ,but it will happen if there is not enough jobs for people that want to work and support there famies while a very few eat off golden plates.

Edit: Is that Rollo from way back at Anandtech?
Wow long time no see. God I used to love your posts.
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#9
(05-29-2015, 07:11 AM)happy medium Wrote: hold on to your guns poor people, if the government takes them, you will have nothing to fight with.

I think in the future, the people will revolt and civil unrest will take back this country from the super rich.
I may not see it, mabe not even my kids ,but it will happen if there is not enough jobs for people that want to work and support there famies while a very few eat off golden plates.

Edit: Is that Rollo from way back at Anandtech?
Wow long time no see. God I  used to love your posts.

Thanks!

I had a good deal of fun making them and reading the responses people would post.

To this day I occasionally burst out laughing when I think of the time I went to a wine tasting party, tasted too much wine.
Grabbed the laptop with warnings I had been receiving from the site admins fresh in mind, "Don't be so inflammatory Rollo! You're really angering the ATi fans!" and posted,"The time has come to burn down ATi HQ, and then extinguish the smoldering ashes with Holy Water." as a joke.

Somebody replied,"YES! BURN them for their false teachings! Their GPUs are made of WOOD!".

Can't remember who said it, but I split my sides then, and every now and again burst out laughing now.

Forums were actually fun in those days.

Look at what ATVF has devolved into now.
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#10
(05-29-2015, 07:11 AM)happy medium Wrote: hold on to your guns poor people, if the government takes them, you will have nothing to fight with.

I think in the future, the people will revolt and civil unrest will take back this country from the super rich.
I may not see it, mabe not even my kids ,but it will happen if there is not enough jobs for people that want to work and support there famies while a very few eat off golden plates.
[Image: picard_facepalm.jpg]
Oh yeah, that would work so well-if the gap in firepower between civilians and the military hadn't shot up like a bottle rocket between 1776 and today.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#11
Well in Philadelphia we have M16's, rocket launchers , grenade launchers sold on the streets.
I can imagine what some of these people have in the back of the corner butcher shop. Smile



Edit: I go away a few years, come back and no Apoppin?
Rollo what did you do this time? Smile On a brighter note I was over his new site checking it out and signed up.
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#12
(05-29-2015, 08:24 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote: Oh yeah, that would work so well-if the gap in firepower between civilians and the military hadn't shot up like a bottle rocket between 1776 and today.

In the era of the Homeland Security Act making all of our communications accessible, laser guided missiles dusting people from very far away, and the tech of the US military, it would be suicide for the masses to revolt.

French Revolution:
"Claude, they only have muskets, just like us! To war!"

American Revolution 2020:
"Joe, I think the Army is overrated. I think we should"(BOOM)
"Jesus Christ don't kill me too! I'll work harder and pay more taxes, very sorry, never liked that guy!"
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#13
I get what your saying, but I don't think our Military would bomb us. They might get the order but I don't think the actual soldiers will kill there own families. They might take our side,they are kinda broke too.
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#14
(05-29-2015, 08:38 AM)happy medium Wrote: Well in Philadelphia we have M16's, rocket launchers , grenade launchers sold on the streets.
I can imagine what some of these people have in the back of the corner butcher shop. Smile



Edit: I go away a few years, come back and no Apoppin?
Rollo what did you do this time? Smile On a brighter note I was over his new site checking it out and signed up.
apoppin had a falling out with Dave unfortunately. He is no longer at ABT.
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#15
(05-29-2015, 08:38 AM)happy medium Wrote: I go away a few years

Where did you go?
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#16
Well it wasn't Disneyworld. :(
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#17
(05-29-2015, 08:55 AM)happy medium Wrote: I get what your saying, but I don't think our Military would bomb us. They might get the order but I don't think the actual soldiers will kill there own families. They might take our side,they are kinda broke too.

Not my side. My wife and I worked our way through college, and then paid our dues in the work world to get to where either of us give our family a middle class life.

Some hobo tries to take the property we've earned because they don't have the balls to earn their own I hope the National Guard shoots them so I don't have to.

64% of us are homeowners, and more than half of households have more than $50K income, if the pizza delivery people decide they "deserve" our stuff they'll have more than the army to worry about.

(05-28-2015, 06:04 PM)gstanford Wrote: You were on the old ABT forums telling us how wonderful it was that all the low skill jobs went overseas, that the people here (USA) didn't deserve them.  Served the greedy unions and upstart peasants right for expecting more.

Never said that. My position has always been we need manufacturing for living wage jobs in this country or we are doomed.

It's also always been pulling on a drill press handle isn't worth $35/hour and 75% pension after 20 years, because most businesses can't support that.

I do think low skill jobs like that are worth $15-$20/hour, a HMO, and 401K program.

Big difference between that and what you ascribe to me.
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#18
"half of households have more than $50K income"

My parents are blue collar workers (both never finished high school) and haven't made only 50k since the early 90's.
I don't think 50k is even middle class anymore, more like 80K.
To me a family of 4 with a 50k income is rather poor , food alone cost 500$ a month average for a family of 4.
Add a mortgage, a car payment, insurance, cable ,cellphones, ect ect ect ,you have no money left.
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#19
(05-30-2015, 10:46 PM)happy medium Wrote: "half of households have more than $50K income"

My parents are blue collar workers (both never finished high school) and haven't made only 50k since the early 90's.
I don't think 50k is even middle class anymore, more like 80K.
To me a family of 4 with a 50k income is rather poor , food alone cost 500$ a month average for a family of 4.
Add a mortgage, a car payment, insurance, cable ,cellphones, ect ect ect  ,you have no money left.

That is all true, but the average US household size is not 4 people, it's 2.5 people. Two people can easily live on $50K a year and not be angry hobos wanting to overthrow the government.

That is my point:

Over half the households here above $50K, household size is small, and even people like your folks who dropped out team up and make $70-$80K between them.

https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/brie...0br-14.pdf

MOST people in USA want nothing to do with revolution because most people here have it pretty damn good.

Look at your parents- prime example. Are they angry revolutionaries ready to walk into tanks and attack helicopters with hunting guns because they can't afford to live like the people on tv?

Or do they trade 40 hours a week of work for a house, cars, healthcare, annual vacation, big tv with cable?

I'm guessing the latter.

The system here works very well.

The French Revolution happened because people could not afford bread.

Big difference between then and now.
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#20
The French Revolution happened because there were no tanks, attack helicopters, machine guns, AGLs, rockets worth speaking of, air bombs, chemical weapons...
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#21
(05-30-2015, 10:46 PM)happy medium Wrote: "half of households have more than $50K income"

My parents are blue collar workers (both never finished high school) and haven't made only 50k since the early 90's.
I don't think 50k is even middle class anymore, more like 80K.
To me a family of 4 with a 50k income is rather poor , food alone cost 500$ a month average for a family of 4.
Add a mortgage, a car payment, insurance, cable ,cellphones, ect ect ect ,you have no money left.

The OP has shown he has no clue as to this.

The rich are so out of touch with reality now more than ever.
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#22
(05-29-2015, 08:52 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: In the era of the Homeland Security Act making all of our communications accessible, laser guided missiles dusting people from very far away, and the tech of the US military, it would be suicide for the masses to revolt.

300 million to what number in the military?
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#23
(05-30-2015, 11:49 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(05-30-2015, 10:46 PM)happy medium Wrote: "half of households have more than $50K income"

My parents are blue collar workers (both never finished high school) and haven't made only 50k since the early 90's.
I don't think 50k is even middle class anymore, more like 80K.
To me a family of 4 with a 50k income is rather poor , food alone cost 500$ a month average for a family of 4.
Add a mortgage, a car payment, insurance, cable ,cellphones, ect ect ect  ,you have no money left.

The OP has shown he has no clue as to this.

The rich are so out of touch with reality now more than ever.

Did you even read what I posted?

I get Happy Mediums parents in a big way, because I've been Happy Mediums parents living on $70-$80K a year for my family.

You can trust me when I say I was not thinking at the time, "Dammit! The only thing to do is overthrow the government, plunge the economy and fate of the nation into uncertainty, and MAYBE I'll be better off some day!".

No I was probably doing exactly what Happy Mediums parents are doing: Enjoying my life in my modest home, driving decent used cars, going on one vacation a year, and doing the same stuff I do now. (just in less expensive fashion)
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#24
(05-30-2015, 11:51 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(05-29-2015, 08:52 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: In the era of the Homeland Security Act making all of our communications accessible, laser guided missiles dusting people from very far away, and the tech of the US military, it would be suicide for the masses to revolt.

300 million to what number in the military?
Doesn't matter, since the U.S. military has plenty of weapons that the civilians don't. The patriots of 1775 and onward had the same guns as the British, could make their own bayonets or scavenge them, and could capture cannons without issue. That situation doesn't exist today.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#25
(05-30-2015, 11:51 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(05-29-2015, 08:52 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: In the era of the Homeland Security Act making all of our communications accessible, laser guided missiles dusting people from very far away, and the tech of the US military, it would be suicide for the masses to revolt.

300 million to what number in the military?

Again you're either not reading, or not "getting" me.

It won't be 300 million vs the military if the people decide to revolt.

You know all those families living on $60-$80K a year, probably a third of the population? They aren't going to revolt because they have a decent life and they're probably smart enough to see that if a couple isolated small events like the 9-11 attacks can throw the economy into hardship for years, a civil war will likely leave them f*cked for a LONG time.

They'd probably rather fight with the military.

People like me and above? Well, we wouldn't fight with the military. We'd just leave. My wife is an accountant with a BS and experience from staff accountant up to finance director. I've got a BS Business, a BA Psych, experience at a variety of jobs, but most importantly years of experience in software support/training/implementation/QA, and I could be bi-lingual again if needed. In short, we can work anywhere and if fry cooks are roaming the streets here with guns, it won't be here. We have enough cash to pick up and move anywhere in the world to start over.

Won't happen though, and you really shouldn't want it to Dave. Like I said, revolutions don't always end in better times for the masses. If you think it's better somewhere else, you should go there?
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#26
(05-30-2015, 11:49 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(05-30-2015, 10:46 PM)happy medium Wrote: "half of households have more than $50K income"

My parents are blue collar workers (both never finished high school) and haven't made only 50k since the early 90's.
I don't think 50k is even middle class anymore, more like 80K.
To me a family of 4 with a 50k income is rather poor , food alone cost 500$ a month average for a family of 4.
Add a mortgage, a car payment, insurance, cable ,cellphones, ect ect ect  ,you have no money left.

The OP has shown he has no clue as to this.

The rich are so out of touch with reality now more than ever.

Just like our retarded federal treasurer last budget (liberal party, basically conservative hard-right republican/tea party) "Poor people don't drive cars!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuZEqDdbrwA



Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#27
Problems with "revolution":

1. How do poor acquire the assets of the rich? It's not like the rich keep their cash under a mattress. Lots of it in offshore accounts.

2. Poor can't do jack sh*t in the global economy. If they seize power, what do they do with it. "OK men. We are now in control. Now begins the golden era where America exports hamburgers to the world and WE control the economy!". Or would it just be, "OK you smart guys work and give us the money."?

3. Can't tax it out of them, if they bring back FDRs "Robin Hood" taxes, the rich have shown they're more than happy to move their business, and themselves elsewhere.

4. You wouldn't WANT everyone to make $100K, because if they did, the prices necessary to support the wages would make $100K worth what $20K is now. It's far preferable to have stratification of wages where everyone has a chance to succeed to some degree. Keeps prices "low" and incentive to get ahead high.

The only people who "don't understand" are those that think the poor are owed a free ride.
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#28
(05-31-2015, 06:05 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: Problems with "revolution":

1.  How do poor acquire the assets of the rich? It's not like the rich keep their cash under a mattress. Lots of it in offshore accounts.

2. Poor can't do jack sh*t in the global economy. If they seize power, what do they do with it. "OK men. We are now in control. Now begins the golden era where America exports hamburgers to the world and WE control the economy!". Or would it just be, "OK you smart guys work and give us the money."?

3. Can't tax it out of them, if they bring back FDRs "Robin Hood" taxes, the rich have shown they're more than happy to move their business, and themselves elsewhere.

4. You wouldn't WANT everyone to make $100K, because if they did, the prices necessary to support the wages would make $100K worth what $20K is now. It's far preferable to have stratification of wages where everyone has a chance to succeed to some degree. Keeps prices "low" and incentive to get ahead high.

The only people who "don't understand" are those that think the poor are owed a free ride.
In an ideal world,
1. Make a law making it illegal to keep money in offshore accounts for any purpose whatsoever, declare anyone who violates this a criminal with a bounty on their heads and send the CIA to collect if they've already fled the country.
2. That's the moment when our trade deficit disappears due to the ordinary people's admittedly overrated common sense.
3. Pass another law making it illegal for the rich to leave the country. Holding them hostage is better than the alternative of capital flight. Also declares all multinationals illegal, and force those that started in the USA to return or be declared organized crime groups.
4. Try this thing called universal basic income. Also try cutting executive bonuses.
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#29
I wasn't going to post in this thread because I know how Rollo is and he's held these views for a long time. He is not going to change and he will just argue with us all endlessly on this one.

Anyhow...

Where I am living the government is going completely broke, heavily into debt. I think that the "revolution" that you guys are talking about is going to be the election of left wing governments that heavily tax the top 1% with the added bonus of increased corporate tax rates. It's really inevitable. With middle class and low income wages steadily going down, it's leading to less tax revenue for the government. Something is going to have to give eventually. We might not even need left wing governments to do this. Someone is going to have to do it or else our governments will go completely broke.
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#30
The real revolution will come from the Chinese.

There is nothing wrong with left-wing governments either. Witness Europe. Despite being dragged into the US's GFC like every other country, the vast majority of Europeans enjoy a very high standard of living.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#31
Not Hungary. At one point, people were scared that the government was going to just seize people's bank accounts a la Cyprus. Not Spain either, their youth unemployment is sky high. Neither is Greece.
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#32
Even in the countries you mention, life isn't all that bad. Sure the economies are a dreadful mess, but the goverments are looking after their people.

That is the US problem in a nut shell, it has forgotten its people.

"We the people" has become "we the filthy rich & We the corporations"....
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#33
(05-31-2015, 09:44 PM)gstanford Wrote: The real revolution will come from the Chinese.


There is nothing wrong with left-wing governments either.  Witness Europe.  Despite being dragged into the US's GFC like every other country, the vast majority of Europeans enjoy a very high standard of living.


http://www.statista.com/statistics/22695...y-dollars/

Gosh, look how wages adjusted for purchasing power are higher in the United States than almost everywhere else in the world.

We must need a revolution so we can all be poorer like all the other countries I guess.

Rolleyes
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#34
(05-31-2015, 10:12 PM)gstanford Wrote: That is the US problem in a nut shell, it has forgotten its people.

"We the people" has become "we the filthy rich & We the corporations"....

Exactly and that is why the masses will rise up against them.
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#35
(05-31-2015, 10:31 PM)dmcowen674 Wrote:
(05-31-2015, 10:12 PM)gstanford Wrote: That is the US problem in a nut shell, it has forgotten its people.

"We the people" has become "we the filthy rich & We the corporations"....

Exactly and that is why the masses will rise up against them.


Half the nation is Republicans. They like the system as is, the only "revolution" they want is for Hillary not to be elected. Even if the poor and students turn out to elect her in hopes of freebies, the Republican control of the House and Senate will make Hillary a lame duck president like Obama.

http://www.minnpost.com/health/2007/11/p...epublicans

Wealth is pretty evenly divided between the political parties.

So, with the Republican half of the country liking the system as is, and all the rich and middle class democrats probably preferring to go on enjoying life without getting shot at, who are these "masses" you keep talking about ?

The Democrat portion of the bottom 20%? The worst funded, easiest to defeat among us? "Can't overthrow the government today Joe, no money left for bullets..."

How about you Dave? I'd bet good money your household income is at least $60-$70K, and you have kids. Going to risk making them orphans? For what? A chance at higher wages? You think it might be easier to just go back to school nights and weekends for a few years and get your money that way?

People in the USA have it way too good to "rise up against the man" as you seem to think will happen.
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#36
In Canada our gdp is 15% lower than the US, Rollo, yet we enjoy a significantly higher quality of life. Perhaps you can explain that one.
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#37
Problem is Rollo equates money with quality of life. He couldn't be further from the truth. There was human life long before there was money.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#38
I think you guys are the ones only focused on money, gstanford.
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#39
(06-01-2015, 12:31 AM)ocre Wrote: I think you guys are the ones only focused on money, gstanford.

No doubt. What is the catalyst of this revolution? Lack of cheery greetings on Main St?

Nonetheless they are all just fantasizing about "justice for those rich bastards we wish we were".

None of us made the choices or did the work necessary to become rich. SOME of us accept this and are happy with what we have.

And some of us daydream about, "Ooh it will be different when some poor guys I don't know rise up and throw the rich guys in jail! Then WE'LL be the top of the food chain because we're all semi skilled and the poor guys who died for it will need someone to run the show!".

They CAN'T be thinking middle class and better parents are going to wage guerilla warfare on the worlds most advanced army in hopes of getting $10 more an hour and lower income taxes. (at least not sensibly thinking that)
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#40
(06-01-2015, 12:31 AM)ocre Wrote: I think you guys are the ones only focused on money, gstanford.
You are encouraging Rollo...
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