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Why you don't set the minimum wage to $70K
#81
(08-06-2015, 09:33 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Immigration actually fuels the entire economy.  They try to let in educated people with a lot of money.  Try to imagine how much it costs to put one child through the school system in the US.  Thousands of dollars.

I think immigration is good to a large extent; it's a no-brainer here in Canada because we have tons of unused land.  In the US I could see it being more of an issue.

Sure, there can still be as many immigrants as Obama wants, but they will just have to contribute a bit more if they want to move over here.

BTW, did you look into how immigration isn't even fueling Germany's economy, or Denmark's, or Belgium's, etc.. - all so well off?

Such countries with limited resources show us that such egalitarian models (free college education, etc.) should be followed, but America has a huge problem to deal with first.

Perhaps Rollo is right, that college education shouldn't be all free right away, but transitioned so that it's federally subsidized halfway to begin with, at least.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#82
(08-06-2015, 01:00 PM)gstanford Wrote: You don't have Work For The Dole in the USA?

No. You just have more kids to get a raise.

There is no work or responsibility associated with it, just collect cash and free apartment.
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#83
(08-06-2015, 02:18 PM)BoFox Wrote: Perhaps Rollo is right, that college education shouldn't be all free right away, but transitioned so that it's federally subsidized halfway to begin with, at least.

Rollo has a cousin with three art degrees, and does not want to pay higher taxes to buy people art degrees.

Rollo has known people who use college as an excuse to not work and party everyday (I was one for a few years) and does not want to pay for that either.

Rollo has seen kids in HS that treat school like a tedious job they did not care about, and do things like yell things at the teacher. Kids paying big bucks to be there generally treat it like a privilege and understand the gravity of the situation.
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#84
(08-06-2015, 01:03 PM)gstanford Wrote: Got news SB. You, me, GStan, BoFox, Dave- all "unsuccessful" financially compared to CEOs.

And that is why Dan Price's 70K lowend wage is so important, to put some fairness back into the system!
[/quote]

$70K people are poor and unsuccessful compared to CEOs.

This would frighten me more than anything else, the resulting inflation would totally destroy my buying power and lower my standard of living. I'm not rich enough to pay double or triple for everything, and if they raised everyone to $70K it's pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't give proportionate raises to those of us who worked and invested in ourselves.

We'd have a society of people making $70-$120K, and everything would cost 2-3X as much.

I'm not too worried though, most businesses would be instantly bankrupted if they went to a $70K minimum wage.
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#85
(08-06-2015, 01:06 PM)gstanford Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 08:06 AM)SteelCrysis Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 07:53 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: Reading comprehension FTL!

I said in my post that there aren't enough professional jobs and everyone shouldn't go to college.

What's wrong with my idea to put the unemployed to work? Do you disagree with me that they would have more dignity and self esteem as working people than they have on welfare?
If you think that, you're wrong.  The reality is that there are too many STEM graduates for the STEM jobs.  Same story with PhD graduates.

Exactly!  Rollo's son had better choose what he studies at college/uni very carefully indeed or he will end up just another unemployed person with a fancy (and expensive) paper certificate that employers don't care about because the jobs market is flooded with people that have them.

Rollo's son doesn't have to worry. If he does his part and earns his bachelor's in accounting like he plans, we won't let him starve or be outdoors.

If the economy fucked him through no fault of his own, I would consider buying a sub shop for him to run and earn a living at.

Like I've told him his whole life, "Keep your nose clean, do your part in school, and you CAN'T fail. You've got people.".

At very least I'd help pay his rent and groceries while he looked for work in his field.

(unless of course the world went bat shit crazy and implemented Dan Price's idea, in which case I'd still let him live with us until he can find his $70K job with $25K buying power)
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#86
(08-06-2015, 04:51 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: $70K people are poor and unsuccessful compared to CEOs.

This would frighten me more than anything else, the resulting inflation would totally destroy my buying power and lower my standard of living. I'm not rich enough to pay double or triple for everything, and if they raised everyone to $70K it's pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't give proportionate raises to those of us who worked and invested in ourselves.

We'd have a society of people making $70-$120K, and everything would cost 2-3X as much.

I'm not too worried though, most businesses would be instantly bankrupted if they went to a $70K minimum wage.
I have news for you.  Raising wages does not magically cause the Mint to print more money.
Valve hater, Nintendo hater, Microsoft defender, AMD hater, Google Fiber hater, 4K lover, net neutrality lover.
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#87
Not to mention magically printing more money is the USA's current answer to the financial crisis and it hasn't impacted inflation.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inf...ion-rates/
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#88
(08-06-2015, 09:57 PM)SteelCrysis Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:51 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: $70K people are poor and unsuccessful compared to CEOs.

This would frighten me more than anything else, the resulting inflation would totally destroy my buying power and lower my standard of living. I'm not rich enough to pay double or triple for everything, and if they raised everyone to $70K it's pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't give proportionate raises to those of us who worked and invested in ourselves.

We'd have a society of people making $70-$120K, and everything would cost 2-3X as much.

I'm not too worried though, most businesses would be instantly bankrupted if they went to a $70K minimum wage.
I have news for you.  Raising wages does not magically cause the Mint to print more money.

Inflation is not only tied to printing more money.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/defi...-inflation

Quote:Cost push inflation is inflation caused by an increase in prices of inputs like labour, raw material, etc.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage...spiral.asp

Quote:The wage-price sprial suggests that rising wages increase disposable income, thus raising the demand for goods and causing prices to rise. Rising prices cause demand for higher wages, which leads to higher production costs and further upward pressure on prices.

Good examples are Silicon Valley or MS economies, lots of income in area = higher prices.
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#89
from your last quote:

Quote:The wage-price sprial suggests that rising wages increase disposable income, thus raising the demand for goods and causing prices to rise.

Key word there being "suggests". The price will only rise if the demand for goods exceeds the supply of goods also.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#90
(08-04-2015, 09:43 AM)gstanford Wrote:
(08-03-2015, 11:28 PM)ocre Wrote:
(08-02-2015, 10:30 PM)gstanford Wrote: I don't know what you mean "it didn't even work for Gravity", it is still happening there and he has picked up new customers in the process too.

His brother is forcing him to do it tough at the moment, but he will come through.  He certainly hasn't failed yet despite your desperately wanting him too.

This isn't communism, no matter how much you want to paint it that way.  At the end of the day there will be people at Gravity earning more than 70K, Dan included.  It just makes the basement much more livable.

it did not work.  Not at all. it is nothing like you and rollo think.  You guys got this all wrong.

Oh, let me count the ways.

1) Gravity did set the minimum salary to 70K, just not today.  Not this year, not even next year.......not even 2 yrs from now.
They plan (hope) to have the the minimum wage up to 70k by 2018 (dec 2017). Their wages will raise over time. 5k a yr.  
Employees making less than $70,000 annually will receive a $5,000-per-year raise or be paid a minimum of $50,000, whichever is greater
So, people making under 50k will get a raise to 50k. The average salary there was already 48,000 a year!  

2)It is not equal pay for everyone.  They still have more valuable people that already make over 70k.  One of the people that left was angry because they felt that their percentage on raise was not as good as the lower paid employees.  Everyone got raises.  The higher paid, higher skilled employees just didnt get double their income and that made a couple upset.  See, the newer people got double their income overnight.

3) Also, this company is in Seattle, which you should also be aware, passed a law to raise the city's minimum wage to $15 per hour. So....everyone from McDonalds to walmart door greeters are gonna be paid at least $15 is Seattle, its the law.  Companies have to raise the min. hourly pay significantly in Seattle and have 3yrs to implement this.  That means in 3 yrs anyone can make 35-45k working anywhere, any bum on the street can walk into any place and will be making such wages.  That is the law and companies have 3yrs to comply, they know that is coming and have to deal with it.  If you know lowest full time pay in the city will be 32-40k, you have to do something to try to keep the good employees and keep them happy.

Point 1, you are wrong, they did and they employed new employees at that rate as well as increased existing employees rates, which caused the dummy spit that led to two previously higher paid employees leaving.

Point 2, I never said it was equal pay for everyone, neither did Dan Price.  It is only a pay rise for formerly low paid employees.  There are others in the company who earn more than 70K.

Point 3, nice that Seattle is getting a minimum pay rate increase, however it comes nowhere close to 70K. 15*38*52 = 29,640 (15*weekly hours*weeks in a year), less than 30K per annum, not even half.

I am wrong on point 1....
Are you saying that Gravity currently has a 70k minimum wage in place?


That it is not 50k with the plan of a 5k increase each year?
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#91
Yes, it does but it ramps up to 70K in stages for existing employees. Read the article in the OP.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#92
Any conversation of this is pretty much pointless.

Look at GStan's graph of wages from 1970-2012- always between 48-52% of GDP.

That's 42 years companies have not been doing what Dan Price did. It's not because no one has ever asked for higher wages, it's not because the companies never thought of paying people more.

On the contrary, at the low end companies have done everything they can to reduce labor costs via automation and outsourcing.

So GStan you can sit down in Tasmania thinking "This is great! Dan Price is the messiah of a new era of equality for the low end of the labor market" if you like.

The rest of the business world is looking at his example and saying "Holy shit, this guy can't afford his house anymore and doesn't have money for his legal fees, he's nuts".

Still only one way to get ahead GStan, learn a skill that pays well.
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#93
There are millions world wide who have been through college, gotten skills in several disciplines and yet are still unemployed.

Getting a skill that pays well is no guarantee of anything nowadays (and it wasn't much of a guarantee in the past either - It is who you know, not what you know that matters, especially as you get higher and higher on the social scale).
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#94
(08-07-2015, 05:07 PM)gstanford Wrote: There are millions world wide who have been through college, gotten skills in several disciplines and yet are still unemployed.

Getting a skill that pays well is no guarantee of anything nowadays (and it wasn't much of a guarantee in the past either - It is who you know, not what you know that matters, especially as you get higher and higher on the social scale).

Joint

Sure GStan, there are LOTS of doctors, lawyers, nurses, CPAs, electrical engineers out there with no degrees or skills- it's all who you know!

And of course:

http://www.businessinsider.com/college-v...tes-2013-6

Quote:The Massive Difference In Unemployment Between Those Who Do And Don't Have A College Degree

And the wage difference in general:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014...ads-widens

Quote:Study: Income Gap Between Young College and High School Grads Widens

You keep on thinking the magic Dan Price fairy is going to come and give you the big bucks. For me, I'll keep telling my son the most likely path to a decent living is learning a skill people will pay for, and keep counting on my bachelors degrees to make it more likely I'll be employed and doing OK.

"Could" be the employers of the world just want to help me all they can, but I think stacking the odds in your favor as much as possible is a good plan.
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#95
There are no guarantees in life that anything you do will pay off. All a person can do is try to make it more likely they will succeed.
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#96
(08-07-2015, 06:55 AM)gstanford Wrote: Yes, it does but it ramps up to 70K in stages for existing employees.  Read the article in the OP.

I think you need to read my post again. The one where you said I was wrong on point 1. Because, I explained to you how it worked. Then you told me I was wrong.

The article I linked to had the details. The min salary is not 70k today.....not even next year.......I am not repeating my post.

You were the one that was wrong. My point 1 was never wrong.
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#97
Guys the way to fix society is to make the rich and the huge corporations pay more tax. Many CEOs are paid as much as half of the entire companies that they work for. We have corporations now with more money than the entire GDP of some companies (i.e. Walmart brings in more money each year than the entire country of Ireland).

Setting the minimum wage to 70k is not the answer. We need to give more tax breaks to the poor and tighten up on the rich.

I have nothing against people being successful. I just think people need to pay their share. Paying $5k more in taxes is like a drop in the bucket to someone making $1 million+, but if you give that $5k to someone making $20k/year it's going to really help them survive, plus all that money will go right back into the economy rather than an offshore bank account.
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#98
[Image: 20121204-graph-corporate-profits-rise-to...ecline.png]

This is nothing to sneeze at.  The overall line for wages is almost perfectly linear in its downward slope.  It went from 53% of the GDP (when the middle class was at its peak) to less than 44% of the GDP (where the middle class is more like upper-lower class). 

Pilots used to make well over $100K/year on average.  Now, they barely scratch $80K/year, with drastically reduced benefits..  Company layoffs are at its highest in 4 years.  

The government is handing out more food stamps than ever before.  Basically what is happening is that the government is having to sustain the lower-than-median income population from succumbing into poverty, and in order to keep the economy alive and "attractive" for corporations in America (where the wages can still be used to pay for companies products). 

So, as the wages continue to decline, the government has to keep on providing more hand-outs, stimulus packages, etc.. just so that companies can suck them up from the population (actually increasingly from the government).  If America tips over into poverty as a whole, like Greece, then companies just ditch America and move onto Russia, China, etc.. as a more flourishing economy on the up and up now. 

20 years is about half of the above graph.  That is another 4-5% or so of wage decline, and another 8-9% of total discrepancy between the corporate profits and wages.  So, 20 years from now, wages will be below 40% of the GDP, and profits over 60% of the GDP.

All this would do is bankrupt the government, if the government doesn't want to let America degenerate into a piss-poor nation like Mexico.  The rich few  would just move into secluded locations like Beverly Hills, while the rest of Los Angeles rots with homeless children wandering the streets (big news nowadays already - the city isn't even able to provide homes for them).  

Quote:Researchers with the National Center on Family Homelessness found that nearly 2.5 million American children were homeless at some point in 2013.
...

Nationally, from 2012 to 2013, the number of children experiencing homelessness in the U.S. rose by 8 percent.

In California, which ranked 48th in child homelessness, the rise was 4 percent, increasing from 505,562 in 2012 to 526,708 in 2013.

http://www.dailynews.com/social-affairs/...california
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#99
How much are you allowed to earn tax free in the US? Here in Canada it's $10,000 AFAIK.
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(08-07-2015, 11:37 PM)ocre Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 06:55 AM)gstanford Wrote: Yes, it does but it ramps up to 70K in stages for existing employees.  Read the article in the OP.

I think you need to read my post again.  The one where you said I was wrong on point 1.  Because, I explained to you how it worked.  Then you told me I was wrong.

The article I linked to had the details.  The min salary is not 70k today.....not even next year.......I am not repeating my post.  

You were the one that was wrong.  My point 1 was never wrong.

No-one claimed it would be. Dan Price always said the raise would be staged in over 3 years. Nonetheless the lower paid employees will have their salary raised to 70K over (a short period) of time.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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(08-07-2015, 11:23 PM)RolloTheGreat Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:07 PM)gstanford Wrote: There are millions world wide who have been through college, gotten skills in several disciplines and yet are still unemployed.

Getting a skill that pays well is no guarantee of anything nowadays (and it wasn't much of a guarantee in the past either - It is who you know, not what you know that matters, especially as you get higher and higher on the social scale).

Joint

Sure GStan, there are LOTS of doctors, lawyers, nurses, CPAs, electrical engineers out there with no degrees or skills- it's all who you know!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/colle...mployment/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29...68203.html

Quote:New research released Monday says nearly half of the nation’s recent college graduates work jobs that don’t require a degree.

The report, from the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, concludes that while college-educated Americans are less likely to collect unemployment, many of the jobs they do have aren't worth the price of their diplomas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nicholas-p...99593.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-bonnie-...36195.html

Quote:According to Labor Department data, of 9 million people who are currently unemployed, 4.7 million went to college or graduated and 4.3 million did not

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/06...92399.html

Quote:The jobless rate for Americans with at least a bachelor's degree rose to 5.1%, the highest since 1970 when records were first kept, reports the Bureau of Labor Statistics. October's 4.7% rate was up from 4.4% in September. Meanwhile, the national unemployment rate last month rose to 9.8% from 9.6%.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/21...53641.html

Quote:More students are enrolling in college today than ever before -- a staggering 2.8 million signed up in 2008 alone.

But the job market is not so kind as to warmly receive the surplus of well-heeled graduates. The Economic Policy Institute puts the current unemployment rate for college graduates aged 16 to 24 at nine percent -- the highest number in 25 years. This leaves America's young people in the lurch, constantly searching for work of any kind, being forced to move back in with their parents and holding out hope that things will improve.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014...llege.html

Quote:So to sum it up: Today’s crop of new B.A.s are staring at roughly 8.5 percent unemployment, 16.8 percent underemployment. Close to half of those who land work won’t immediately find a job that requires their degree, and for those stuck in that situation, there are fewer “good” jobs to go around. Welcome to adulthood, class of 2014.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/06/05/mille...35821.html

Quote:Millennials face higher university tuitions and student loan debt than ever before, as well as stiffer competition when they enter the workforce. A 25-year-old who recently earned a master’s and is living with a friend in Washington, D.C., tells Newsweek she is waitressing while looking for a job better suited to her qualifications. “It’s hard,” she says. “They don’t want to pay you extra for your master’s. There are enough people with master’s degrees that they can require them.”

Joint
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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Rollo's college arguments, just like all his others, blown out of the water!





Big Grin
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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(08-08-2015, 09:30 AM)gstanford Wrote: Rollo's college arguments, just like all his others, blown out of the water!

GStan:

How much chance does a person have to get jobs I listed (Dr, nurse, engineer, lawyer, CPA) without a degree in that field?
None- because those jobs require a degree. There's a huge class of professional jobs where people can't even be considered if they have no degree in the field.

Then there is a huge class of professional jobs where a non industry specific degree is listed as a requirement to be considered. (e.g. pharma sales, many management positions)

These are two facts that cannot be denied.

My son hopes to get a BS-Accounting degree like his mom has, and wants to add to that with a CPA certification. Are there unemployed kids with accounting degrees/CPA certificates? Sure. Are there some working pouring coffee while they look for work in their field? Sure.

Do they have a chance to get work in their field that the people who don't have accounting degrees will never have? Yes.

Statistics for recent grads mean nothing to me. What means something to me is general statistics because I'm trying to stack his odds to earn a decent living:

http://www.indeed.com/salary/CPA.html

Quote:Average CPA salaries for job postings nationwide are 42% higher than average salaries for all job postings nationwide.

So whose advice is "good" Gstan?

GStan Wrote:Don't bother getting a degree kids. Some 9% unemployment for college grads, and half of recent college grads not working in their field. Better to just take your place at the bottom and pray the business owners change to a position that has never existed in the history of the world and put the needs of the unskilled labor first.

Rollo Wrote:Your best chance of earning more money is getting a degree in something. You may not have a job in your field in one year, or five, but you'll always be able to apply for the jobs others can't, and have a chance. Even if you have to take an unskilled position outside your field while you look, even that could lead to other openings in your field within the company as they open up.

You've proved nothing other than it's tougher times for college grads to get work in their field. They still end up better off in the long run. You don't see many college grads working in a warehouse moving boxes their whole life.
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I've never said "don't bother getting a degree/qualification", what I've said is degrees/qualifications are commonplace, you can't rely on them to distinguish you from the next job applicant and some employers won't even accept your application if you don't have one. Therefore they are little better than a high school certificate nowadays and certainly won't be the thing an employer uses to decide whether or not you get an interview let alone a job.

Given that degrees/qualifications are commonplace, it is foolish to spend more than necessary on acquiring them.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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(08-08-2015, 06:20 PM)gstanford Wrote: I've never said "don't bother getting a degree/qualification", what I've said is degrees/qualifications are commonplace, you can't rely on them to distinguish you from the next job applicant and some employers won't even accept your application if you don't have one.
That's what you say. The US government (who actually know) say 28.8% of people over 25 have a bachelors degree.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Having more education than 71.2% of your peers does not make you commonplace.

You're also ignoring the fact that it is the LAW that a person have a college diploma to do all the jobs I listed. You can't do things like say,"I done graduated high school, I think I'll go be a dentist as that pays well.".

(08-08-2015, 06:20 PM)gstanford Wrote:  Therefore they are little better than a high school certificate nowadays and certainly won't be the thing an employer uses to decide whether or not you get an interview let alone a job.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014...level-jobs

Again, that's what you say.

Quote:Employers' increasing desire to hire college graduates could squeeze others out of the middle class.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...story.html

Quote:As examples, just 25 percent of people employed as insurance clerks have a BA, but twice that percentage of insurance-clerk job ads require one. Among executive secretaries and executive assistants, 19 percent of job-holders have degrees, but 65 percent of job postings mandate them.

Gosh, GStan's opinion or data mining company's data of requirements in actual job postings?

What to trust, what to trust?


(08-08-2015, 06:20 PM)gstanford Wrote: Given that degrees/qualifications are commonplace, it is foolish to spend more than necessary on acquiring them.

You need to look up that "commonplace" word, I don't think you understand it.

US Government says 28% of people have bachelors.

You seem to like liberal blog Huffington Post, they agree with me:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/11...68780.html

Quote:For instance, college graduates ages 25 to 32 who were working full time now typically earn about $17,500 more annually than employed young adults with just a high school diploma ($45,500 vs. $28,000); those with a two-year degree or some college training earned $30,000.

I'd have to be brain damaged to tell my son, "Gosh son, Gstan says degrees are commonplace these days and not worth the cost. I'm going to spend the $100K I was going to blow on your degree on another cabin because I like going fishing and boating a lot. Have fun trying to pay your bills dude! Maybe you'll luck out and the guy you work for will pull a Dan Price and gift you a good salary!"
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Once again, I never said don't get a degree/qualification if your career needs one. But you would be dumb to get a qualification from an expensive college/university if your local trade/community college also offers it.

Certainly in the case of your son wanting to become an accountant a trade school is more than sufficient, you can become a CPA in Australia studying through TAFE (Technical And Further Education) federally funded trade colleges. Private college/university would be a waste of money.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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(08-08-2015, 08:08 PM)gstanford Wrote: Once again, I never said don't get a degree/qualification if your career needs one.  But you would be dumb to get a qualification from an expensive college/university if your local trade/community college also offers it.

Certainly in the case of your son wanting to become an accountant a trade school is more than sufficient, you can become a CPA in Australia studying through TAFE (Technical And Further Education) federally funded trade colleges.  Private college/university would be a waste of money.

Well, that's Australia.

In the USA, in the state I live in, a person has to attend a public or private college and get a bachelors in accounting:

http://nasba.org/exams/cpaexam/wisconsin/

Basically you need 150 hours of college course work. It's possible there are online colleges and the like that can supply this, but:

A. I'm in this to stack the odds in his favor getting jobs, remember? Trying to differentiate him from the rest. I'm not rich enough to send him to Ivy League, but I can afford a good state college.

B. Why would I deny him the experience of going to a University? Was a really big deal to me , an experience like none I've had since.

C. I think the university is a great place to meet your wife. I've preached two strategies to my son his whole life: A. You get education and then experience that make you a person a company wants to pay to stay, and knows other companies would love to have. B. If you marry a similar person, you each get the economic power of "If one of us gets fired, the worst that can happen is we're middle class and the family is safe."

I see helping my son attend a university as the most important thing I can do to help ensure the life he's always known is the life he will always know.
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Rollo you seem obsessed with money and class status.
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(08-08-2015, 10:59 PM)SickBeast Wrote: Rollo you seem obsessed with money and class status.

I am obsessed with security for my family.

Don't want our lives to be "Mwa haw haw haw. The big boss told Rollo he can't sweep floors anymore! No more beans and Blatz for Rollo! Waaaaaahhhhh!" and then going home to tell my wife we have to move and try to borrow money from our parents.

Want to control my own destiny, make my reality what I want it to be.

Want my son to be able to do the same.

Has nothing to do with class status, I live in a decidedly middle class house because either my wife or I can afford it. If I was concerned with status I would have bought a home more in line with our combined income. Same on our fishing shack. Don't drive BMWs or Lexus.

My dad showed me the right way to live- don't be house poor, live a good life and buy nice middle of the road stuff, invest for your retirement.
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For me personally I just decided to find a career that I was happy with and fulfilled by. I am paid very well for what I do and I have a great retirement waiting for me. My wife and I learned how to live on very little money while I was in university and we have carried that forward now that I have a good salary. My student loans will be paid off in a couple years, plus I will own my car outright at that point and both of my kids will be in school full time and out of full time daycare. So in two years we will be doing very well. Right now we just get by and pay off as much debt as we can.

I just think that happiness is the key. You need a job that you're happy with. I had to make a career change because I was in a job that was not right for me at all. For a lot of people university is a complete waste. Skilled trades tend to earn almost as much as university grads and they are not saddled with debt; they actually come out ahead in a lot of cases. I think for your son you should have him take a Myers Briggs test before he decides on a career. I know I wish I had done that before I took my undergrad.
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One of my CPA buddies said it best to me when we were bass fishing. "My uncle told me that no matter what you do, it's not going to be an exciting, fun thing to go to work. You might as well learn something you can make a good living at.".

SB, aren't you a teacher? That would be a difficult job for me, being in front of a classroom all day long. I do it in my profession when I do classroom training or speeches, but you have my respect. Those are long days for me having to put on a smile and be "on" all day. Much easier for me to log on to clients networks remotely to work with them supporting them or training them, can relax, take breaks as needed.
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(08-08-2015, 11:46 PM)SickBeast Wrote: For me personally I just decided to find a career that I was happy with and fulfilled by. I am paid very well for what I do and I have a great retirement waiting for me. My wife and I learned how to live on very little money while I was in university and we have carried that forward now that I have a good salary. My student loans will be paid off in a couple years, plus I will own my car outright at that point and both of my kids will be in school full time and out of full time daycare. So in two years we will be doing very well. Right now we just get by and pay off as much debt as we can.

I just think that happiness is the key. You need a job that you're happy with. I had to make a career change because I was in a job that was not right for me at all. For a lot of people university is a complete waste. Skilled trades tend to earn almost as much as university grads and they are not saddled with debt; they actually come out ahead in a lot of cases. I think for your son you should have him take a Myers Briggs test before he decides on a career. I know I wish I had done that before I took my undergrad.

You're lucky to have only a couple years left to go.  One of my professor friends just finished paying off the direct loans after more than 30 years.  It was the most exciting thing ever - the party was crazier than bachelor's party!  My other close friend has been teaching jewelry making at a state college for 20 years, but still has not yet paid off the loans.  He cannot even buy a house over $100K worth, due to bad credit associated with such debts, and his pay stinks.  He considers it a luxury to be drinking a $10 6-pack. 

Personally, I might not have had that much success business-wise, failing at my business start-up (I actually dropped out of college, and formed a corporation, with my own patent-pending invention back in 2003).  My belief was that if Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc.. could do it, then I could, but it's a much more cut-throat world these days, with many more corporate giants making it nearly impossible for young entrepreneurs to really take off.  The litigation costs, the start-up costs, etc.. all proved to be too much, and I didn't have a masters degree with several years of work experience under my belt along with an incredible credit line, plus most of the venture capitalists were actually vultures rather than the start-up angels that they posed as.  Went back to college, changed my major for the 5th time, and finally got to where I am at now..  While I appreciate the fact that we get to enjoy living in a sexy $595,000 house now, I'm actually geared more towards occupational instability rather than stability (in case a more meaningful opportunity comes along), and am also grateful that I had hard times as well.  If I got rich (especially during my 20's), I'd probably get carried too far away from my own family.  The cut-throat corporate world isn't easy, and isn't intended for those who really want to spend time with their 5 kids.  We plan on having 1 more.

Point is, to follow your own heart - to go for the truest purpose in life, whether it's a humble occupation or a lofty one (don't let others' negativity fool you with the illusion of "security", as a bribe for you to completely give up your own "calling" in the long run, if it's a truly honest belief in your own purpose, and especially if you're not even starving a single day, ever).  Until the day you really starve, the illusion of "security" is only that..  an illusion, and by never ever giving up the inner calling, the rewards could actually be more fulfilling and complete.  Life might seem rough at times, but overcoming these times makes the journey that much more special.  Money really does tempt..  but yet, it's still an illusion in the end. 

I do respect Apoppin's journey in life.  He's still doing something meaningful rather than just wasting away the tax dollars by watching TV all day long like many old farts do.  My step-grandfather managed his own life insurance business, and got quite wealthy, but then got a severe cancer on his cheek that completely disfigured his face as the doctors carved out everything but the jawbone.  After that, he just watched TV 16 hours a day for the rest of his 15 years until he was 74, contributing or giving back practically nothing to the society or even his own family.  He was just as miserable as Scrooge, but worse in some ways.  It was horrible misery as he forced himself to watch the same commercials 30+ times a day, tv show reruns over and over, while he yelled at my Grandma to bring him a cup of Sprite..  It seemed like the ultimate nightmare for one's own life. 

Anyway, college tuition shouldn't be so expensive.  Private universities make ridiculous profits compared to the salaries of their professors, who can barely pay off their old college loans - just look up the profit statements of most private universities across the nation (that actually disclose such) and see for yourself.  If financial stability is important for children, try to discourage them from loans of any kind - especially if there's a cheaper way of getting the same degree.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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(08-08-2015, 07:55 AM)SickBeast Wrote: How much are you allowed to earn tax free in the US?  Here in Canada it's $10,000 AFAIK.

I think it's about 10% to begin with for income wages even if under $10,000, although IRS allows for annual earnings (if self-employed, etc..) of up to $20,000 to be tax-free in some circumstances.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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(08-08-2015, 10:59 PM)SickBeast Wrote: Rollo you seem obsessed with money and class status.

Nah, he just really enjoys what he gets to do with the money.  Of course he doesn't want to go to work everyday (some days, he might wish he could just sleep in, lol) but getting to play around with the money makes him wonder how he could be happy without such.  Big Grin


So, what do you guys think about the corporations "owning" the government to an exceedingly greater degree in the future than already today? 

The gov't is caught in a limbo..  trying to sustain the lower-than-median income half of the population from turning the States into something like Mexico, but yet at the same time, trying to keep the companies from completely ditching America for other countries with lower wage labor.....

Immigration might be great for Canada's economic model, but most of the States are already heavily populated along with plenty of immigrants - rather many of them uneducated (especially the Hispanic portion).  Perhaps the US should look to Germany's model - seeing how Germany succeeded so well with the unification of the ex-communist East Germany.  There is little population growth (educated immigrants) to fuel the economy, to buffer the health-care costs of the aging population that is no longer working, yet Germany shines even among the W. European nations. 


With the government further and further under the mercy of the corporations, providing billions of dollars to the lower income bracket, so that the poor workers can continue to work at such low wages while staying out of extreme poverty, are the corporations really starting to take over as the government eventually bankrupts itself?  Is it inevitable that the nation at large is going back to the select few rich and the mass low-income "peasantry" ratio of the middle ages?  Would there be a major crisis like a Coup-d-Etat with the current Capitalist model of America, to the same effect of the Communist model of Soviet Union in 1991 (it happened to the extreme right, so might as well happen to the extreme left)?
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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I don't know, BoFox, to be honest I really don't know how bad things are for the lower class in the USA right now. I will say that in Canada things are pretty good. We don't have the extreme poverty that you see in the USA, although things are really bad on a lot of our Native reservations. I don't know how the Aboriginals are doing in the US but they are quite poor here and they are very unhappy.

Like I said before, the top 1% need to pay their fair share. At the very least they need to find a way to shut down the offshore bank accounts and force them to actually pay tax. The corporations do this as well. Actually anyone can do it. Someone once told me that he invested money on the Island of Man and he profited from it tax free.
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The problem with the extreme poverty here is the people in it find it easier to collect free money than do the work the illegal immigrants very much desire. (because they can't collect free money)

We could solve the welfare problem and the illegal immigrant problem if we:

A. Shifted the risk/penalty from immigrants to employers
B. Shifted welfare benefits to be collected through business owners as subsidy for work


Of course, if the starving people of Mexico and Central America had to stay there and starve, it might de-stabilize the region which would have other issues.
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Rollo is being very logical today. Are you off the sauce, Rollo? Tongue
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(08-10-2015, 06:30 AM)SickBeast Wrote: Rollo is being very logical today.  Are you off the sauce, Rollo? Tongue

I haven't been much of a drinker for years. Doesn't agree with me anymore, hangovers are too rough.
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(08-10-2015, 04:06 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: The problem with the extreme poverty here is the people in it find it easier to collect free money than do the work the illegal immigrants very much desire. (because they can't collect free money)

We could solve the welfare problem and the illegal immigrant problem if we:

A. Shifted the risk/penalty from immigrants to employers
B. Shifted welfare benefits to be collected through business owners as subsidy for work


Of course, if the starving people of Mexico and Central America had to stay there and starve, it might de-stabilize the region which would have other issues.

Do you know why they find it easier? It is because employers discriminate against them for being poor, employers don't give them the chance to show they can work and because corporations refuse to invest resources in poor and rural areas which forces the poor to stay urbanised in cities with limited opportunities!
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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(08-10-2015, 04:06 AM)RolloTheGreat Wrote: The problem with the extreme poverty here is the people in it find it easier to collect free money than do the work the illegal immigrants very much desire. (because they can't collect free money)

We could solve the welfare problem and the illegal immigrant problem if we:

A. Shifted the risk/penalty from immigrants to employers
B. Shifted welfare benefits to be collected through business owners as subsidy for work


Of course, if the starving people of Mexico and Central America had to stay there and starve, it might de-stabilize the region which would have other issues.

I understand Point B, but am not sure I understand exactly how you would achieve Point A?  And how exactly would that make things better?

Those fed with a silver spoon will never understand what it means to be like, coming from a rural town that provided piss-poor education to begin with.  Oops, she didn't even have birth control education or was even able to afford a condom, so she had 3 kids before she could ever dream of completing a full bachelors degree - and had to work 2 full time jobs ever since just to afford feeding her kids peanut butter and crackers.  It's not a rare situation, if there are 2.5 million homeless children in the USA as of 2013 (linked in one of my posts above), on a sharp 8% increase from year to year.  The well-off think they know everything when actually, they have never stepped foot in a trailer park just once in their lives.

Regarding the de-stabilization of the region - those able to afford to move out of the nation (or at least with the courage) should be using the resources or the courage to build up their own nations, rather than escaping to America.  "The Land of Opportunity" illusion has spread across the world, as to the reason the US became the most powerful economy after WW2, so pretty much every single immigrant is believing in this old adage, that it would apply to themselves as well.  How about they use their own energy to organize a rights movement in their own nation, or to build upwards like East Germany did when joining West Germany?!?  Just a bit unification and cooperation is all that is needed. 

Yet, (also regarding Point B), we do need some independence to a degree.  If it were truly a world of "Borgs", is it then Communism/Socialism beneath all of this facade?  Lenoardo da Vinci would've never had the opportunity to spark the Renaissance - Galileo not ever perfecting his telescope, nor Newton discovering the law of gravitation and Calculus, etc..   and Apoppin would've never become quite the legendary reviewer, hehe.  Europe pretty much owes its long-standing prosperity to the fact that some people were allowed to dedicate themselves to matters beyond the scope of the Borg officer/employer.  While I digress now, by concurring that you, Rollo, are correct that far too many abuse welfare and food stamp benefits while not contributing in any meaningful way back to the economy or to a more far-reaching prosperity of the civilization as whole, I hope we understand each other that stressing the opposing points in debate do not mean absolution in any way.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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