Why you don't set the minimum wage to $70K

[RolloTheGreat]

A person can get a good lifestyle going in America still, especially if they team up with another working professional.

"Still...", you say, like as if no longer someday soon?  Ha j/k.

True, dat. 

What I propose (very very rough draft - my ideas might evolve or change):

1)  Give the National Forests back to the Native Americans (under conditions that the forests are maintained and well-cared for). 

2)  Offer free college education nationwide in every public university/college, for long-standing citizens (of more than 18 years).  Those who have not been a citizen for more than 18 years (immigrants) have to pay for their own college tuition.

3)  Raise the minimum wage for long-standing citizens to $20/hour.  Minimum wage does not rise for immigrants - it would be left up to companies' discretion. 

4)  Recent immigrants, even with a green card, or those who have recently become citizens, will have to find other means of borrowing money for college tuition, rather than directly from the government.  

That way, Obama's relaxed immigration laws that encourage more immigrants to over-populate the states can do all the dirty work for us, like flipping burgers, etc. if they still want to escape their own countries.  And the long-standing citizens will have less of an excuse for not getting well-educated and working a more skilled job. 

The government would no longer be burdened with hundreds of billions of dollars of unpaid college loans, and the long-standing citizens won't be burdened with paying outrageous loan debts.  We owe it to the African Americans who built the nation from the ground up with their bare hands and the sweat on their brows - the tax dollars should encourage them to live the American dream for once.  They didn't wish to be brought over here, and we aren't creating an Isreal for our own African-Americans like we did for the European Jews.  Let it be that low-income (less than $60K income) African-Americans (who can prove their American heritage to pre-MLK Jr. days) don't even have to pay for taxes at all, as our public apology for centuries of slavery........  the same goes for Native Americans.

It is in my opinion that America is already heavily populated enough, with a still-healthy ratio of births to deaths.  Sure, the immigrants can keep on pouring in, but we shouldn't encourage it as much as Obama is now.  Especially not if we can't even make it right for the Native Americans.  The immigrants should be building upon their own countries rather than escaping to America and further burdening the government.  They will have to pay the taxes as well, after just making it harder for the long-standing citizens by directly competing against them in public universities and colleges, and at workplaces.  It seems fair to me (give-and-take condition).

I don't think the Native Americans want the forests, they have casinos and other treaty perks. I don't really think we owe them anything either, the history of the world is one of conquest and this happened hundreds of years ago. What's next? Everyone researches their family tree and looks for reparations from the anyone who may have an ancestor who kicked their family off some rock? My ancestors came here in the late 1800s, never owned a slave, never fought a Native America. I owe someone? My dad's grandfather was a tenant famer, and his dad was a tenant farmer. I think someone owes ME.

As far as free college goes I disagree, although I do agree with state and federal subsidy to make it more reasonable, say $50K instead of $100K. College SHOULD cost a lot, because frankly it shouldn't be taken lightly. Joe Bob shouldn't be saying "Can't decide if I want to be a fry cook or a veterinarian, guess I'll go to college a while and see.". Not enough professional jobs for everyone as it is, and it's better if the people in class aren't fucking around. They know they've paid good bucks, and are serious about it. Making it free might make it like high school.

My plot to fix the economy is this: Route all safety net benefits through industry to subsidize wages for low skill factory jobs and provide health care for the people. Create federal day care centers where other assistant folks work to watch kids while their assistance buddies go do things like make socks or plastic bowls. How does this help you might say?

The huge pool of assistance labor creates for profit products, and more skilled people get jobs in the office or as supervisors of the assistance folks. Now you have a huge group of people who were once a drain on the economy, now part of it and helping others have jobs as well. (instead of sponging off them) The profits of their labor help fund the on assistance staff, themselves and the daycare centers. They get some dignity being working people, and people wouldn't hate them anymore because they would not be moochers, they would be an import part of the economy.

America's main problem is manufacturing left, it's not that not enough people go to college. I want manufacturing back, and for those people to have more dignity and self esteem.

[SickBeast]

I think something needs to be done about the absurd CEO salaries.  That is as big a problem as how low the minimum wage is.

Always amazes me how people who aren't successful sit around and whine about how "We need to do something about those darn successful people!".

Only some of them though. Actors, musicians, athletes, authors, and even some YouTube Dumbasses make equally huge salaries and you never hear a peep about this.

CEOs that are actually working stiffs like the rest of us get all the hate, I guess because they did the working stiff thing better than us.

So I'm unsuccessful for having a logical point of view? Get lost! Get off our forum! You bring nothing to the community here!

[BoFox]

SB, Rollo didn't mean it in a bad personal way. Just a light reference to those who don't consider themselves to be successful in the sense of becoming a CEO. Be more thick skinned, SB!

[BoFox]

RolloTheGreat

A person can get a good lifestyle going in America still, especially if they team up with another working professional.

"Still...", you say, like as if no longer someday soon?  Ha j/k.

True, dat. 

What I propose (very very rough draft - my ideas might evolve or change):

1)  Give the National Forests back to the Native Americans (under conditions that the forests are maintained and well-cared for). 

2)  Offer free college education nationwide in every public university/college, for long-standing citizens (of more than 18 years).  Those who have not been a citizen for more than 18 years (immigrants) have to pay for their own college tuition.

3)  Raise the minimum wage for long-standing citizens to $20/hour.  Minimum wage does not rise for immigrants - it would be left up to companies' discretion. 

4)  Recent immigrants, even with a green card, or those who have recently become citizens, will have to find other means of borrowing money for college tuition, rather than directly from the government.  

That way, Obama's relaxed immigration laws that encourage more immigrants to over-populate the states can do all the dirty work for us, like flipping burgers, etc. if they still want to escape their own countries.  And the long-standing citizens will have less of an excuse for not getting well-educated and working a more skilled job. 

The government would no longer be burdened with hundreds of billions of dollars of unpaid college loans, and the long-standing citizens won't be burdened with paying outrageous loan debts.  We owe it to the African Americans who built the nation from the ground up with their bare hands and the sweat on their brows - the tax dollars should encourage them to live the American dream for once.  They didn't wish to be brought over here, and we aren't creating an Isreal for our own African-Americans like we did for the European Jews.  Let it be that low-income (less than $60K income) African-Americans (who can prove their American heritage to pre-MLK Jr. days) don't even have to pay for taxes at all, as our public apology for centuries of slavery........  the same goes for Native Americans.

It is in my opinion that America is already heavily populated enough, with a still-healthy ratio of births to deaths.  Sure, the immigrants can keep on pouring in, but we shouldn't encourage it as much as Obama is now.  Especially not if we can't even make it right for the Native Americans.  The immigrants should be building upon their own countries rather than escaping to America and further burdening the government.  They will have to pay the taxes as well, after just making it harder for the long-standing citizens by directly competing against them in public universities and colleges, and at workplaces.  It seems fair to me (give-and-take condition).

I don't think the Native Americans want the forests, they have casinos and other treaty perks. I don't really think we owe them anything either, the history of the world is one of conquest and this happened hundreds of years ago. What's next? Everyone researches their family tree and looks for reparations from the anyone who may have an ancestor who kicked their family off some rock? My ancestors came here in the late 1800s, never owned a slave, never fought a Native America. I owe someone? My dad's grandfather was a tenant famer, and his dad was a tenant farmer. I think someone owes ME.

As far as free college goes I disagree, although I do agree with state and federal subsidy to make it more reasonable, say $50K instead of $100K. College SHOULD cost a lot, because frankly it shouldn't be taken lightly. Joe Bob shouldn't be saying "Can't decide if I want to be a fry cook or a veterinarian, guess I'll go to college a while and see.". Not enough professional jobs for everyone as it is, and it's better if the people in class aren't fucking around. They know they've paid good bucks, and are serious about it. Making it free might make it like high school.

My plot to fix the economy is this: Route all safety net benefits through industry to subsidize wages for low skill factory jobs and provide health care for the people. Create federal day care centers where other assistant folks work to watch kids while their assistance buddies go do things like make socks or plastic bowls. How does this help you might say?

The huge pool of assistance labor creates for profit products, and more skilled people get jobs in the office or as supervisors of the assistance folks. Now you have a huge group of people who were once a drain on the economy, now part of it and helping others have jobs as well. (instead of sponging off them) The profits of their labor help fund the on assistance staff, themselves and the daycare centers. They get some dignity being working people, and people wouldn't hate them anymore because they would not be moochers, they would be an import part of the economy.

America's main problem is manufacturing left, it's not that not enough people go to college. I want manufacturing back, and for those people to have more dignity and self esteem.

Wow, federal day care centers make so much sense!!!  Yet, there should be at least 1 adult to 5 kids or so, with security cameras everywhere to ensure that proper treatment takes place, along with routine "surprise" checkups to ensure the cleaniness of the place, etc.  And these places should look like homes, like the one at NIH children care center. 

Been there, real nice.  Only a few miles from my home.  National Institute of Health  (where Obama goes for annual physical check-ups)

Rollo, yeah, there should be some transition. 

All long-standing citizens (citizens for more than 18 years) making below $60k/year pay zero income tax.  And then say, 10% income tax for any remaining income over $60K, not considering tax refunds...  
All long-standing African-American citizens of more than 36 years making below $90k/year pay zero income tax.  And then the same 10% income tax for any remaining income over $90K 

All green-card immigrants pay at least 25% income tax no matter the income level.  All short-standing citizens for less than 18 years pay progressively slightly less tax depending on how many years they have been citizens for (5-year citizens pay 20% tax, 10-year pay 15% tax, 15-year pay 10% tax).

This would discourage immigrants from creeping across the border at record high rates nowadays.  Less shooting of the Mexicans crossing the rivers.  Less costs associated with deporting them back overseas, etc..  Less overpopulation concerns (driving up the housing costs and property values for the rest of us Americans)..  traffic problems not getting out of hand as quickly in the future.. 

Notice how many immigrants work so hard, just to send money back to their families in other countries?  If they can afford to move here and do just that, then they can pay for our college tuition.  Many of them who come over to colleges here do so on a scholarship, with their own countries paying for the tuition, hoping that they would come back to support their own countries (which many don't, actually). 

About the Native Americans - the reservations that they are confined to are generally some of the most barren and worthless lands available anywhere.  The Trail of Tears might not mean anything to you, but it was pretty much like the Holocaust for the Native Americans - just a century earlier.  Allowing them to reside and own say, 50% of the National Forests (within the confines of moderation with land use and taking care of the forests) would just be a token of respect - a highly meaningful one, and a powerful gesture.  If spending $38 billion on the newly created Israel each year since shortly after WW2 made sense for us, isn't this the least we could do for our own victims? 

Regarding the long-standing African Americans - if they wish to move back to their homeland in Africa, we should pay for the transportation to Africa, plus $5000-15000 cash per individual (depending on their previous wages) for settling down in their own homeland (on the condition that the African country approves the transfer of citizenship).  Another powerful and meaningful gesture of apology (that not many would choose to undertake anyway). 

Look at Germany, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, etc..  see how well off they are without a massive influx of immigrants.  The quality of life is higher than here in America.

My Mom just had to wait for 11 hours in the emergency room here at John Hopkins hospital - the icon of an American hospital!  The service was HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!   That is, with private healthcare premium. 

My Dad was an immigrant, moving to America to attend college on a scholarship paid by his own country that expected him to come back after graduation.  His transportation was paid for, as he visited home each summer.  But then when he graduated, there was no going back, and not even visiting until many years later when he was in the "clear", protected by his own army Commanding-Officer brothers that are now Generals.  Nothing to do against him, except that there seems to be some betraying of his own country. 

America is too supportive of the immigrants while still being downright difficult on the Native Americans, African Americans, and other low-income nation-born citizens who didn't rise as prominently in the "Land of the Survival of the Fittest".  The immigrants just come in, make it harder for others to succeed at competitive schools and job marketplaces, and then send the money overseas, hoping that a few will move over as well.  And the rest of the long-standing Americans are pushed out of the upper-middle class status into the lower class status (the "new" middle class), with little time or hope for furthering education or career.

Rollo, your Mom who got divorced and then got 2 degrees, was rather lucky in order to have been able to do that compared to most other Americans who have to work full time jobs while barely being able to afford night classes with whatever time they have left, if they don't have to work a second job.  I know many people who would have absolutely loved to do that, but just got stuck in between a rock and a hard place, while the immigrants find themselves on a nice beach...

[RolloTheGreat]

You just don't get it, do you?

Society needs janitors, burger flippers, garbage collectors and lots of other menial job roles too.  Those jobs don't do themselves you know.

And there are more people doing essential menial work than there are engineers in the workforce.  If everyone went and studied to be an engineer, you would have janitors with engineering degrees!

Reading comprehension FTL!

I said in my post that there aren't enough professional jobs and everyone shouldn't go to college.

What's wrong with my idea to put the unemployed to work? Do you disagree with me that they would have more dignity and self esteem as working people than they have on welfare?

[BoFox]

Plus, no welfare for the elderly, even the widows - if their assets are greater than 5 years of local median income. The property (house) counts towards the asset, so say that the widow lives in a half-million dollar home, and buys new Cadillac's every few years... and still gets paid $2000 a month from the government just because the husband died?????

The baby-boomer generation is going to hit America much harder than it ever hit Japan. It wasn't fun for Japan, but it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back for America which recently doubled the national debt in the last 8 years. The next 10-25 years will bankrupt the government at that rate - as the national debt quadruples or so. The debt could even become twice the GDP.

I'd say that no matter how hard the widow worked, or how hard her husband worked, if the house is worth $500,000, and she wants welfare, she has to sell off the house, live off the cash by buying a smaller home or renting an apartment, until she can prove that her assets are low enough to warrant sucking money from the government's tits when they should be giving back to the society instead of just taking, taking, and taking....

[RolloTheGreat]

I think something needs to be done about the absurd CEO salaries.  That is as big a problem as how low the minimum wage is.

Always amazes me how people who aren't successful sit around and whine about how "We need to do something about those darn successful people!".

Only some of them though. Actors, musicians, athletes, authors, and even some YouTube Dumbasses make equally huge salaries and you never hear a peep about this.

CEOs that are actually working stiffs like the rest of us get all the hate, I guess because they did the working stiff thing better than us.

So I'm unsuccessful for having a logical point of view?  Get lost!  Get off our forum!  You bring nothing  to the community here!

Got news SB. You, me, GStan, BoFox, Dave- all "unsuccessful" financially compared to CEOs.

[SteelCrysis]

Reading comprehension FTL!

I said in my post that there aren't enough professional jobs and everyone shouldn't go to college.

What's wrong with my idea to put the unemployed to work? Do you disagree with me that they would have more dignity and self esteem as working people than they have on welfare?

If you think that, you're wrong. The reality is that there are too many STEM graduates for the STEM jobs. Same story with PhD graduates.

[BoFox]

I know a PhD secertary! Honestly! Her PhD certificate was on the wall, and she has to handle phone calls for an Institute that she hopes to gets promoted at.....

[BoFox]

BTW, Rollo, that Children's Inn at the NIH has Xbox360 consoles with Kinect, PS3, Wii, with big screen TV's in a fantastic looking entertainment room with ping pong tables, etc.. and in the back there's a tennis, basketball court, etc.. real nice! No reason the government can't do that!

Just get them all addicted to video gaming!


Anyway, Rollo, up in Wisconsin, I'm sure you're not seeing much of any immigration at all - so it's difficult for you to see it as a problem. In the faster growing states, especially in the south and the west, and in the larger cities especially of over 4-5 million people, immigration is higher than ever in the past 70 years - since WW2. I've personally seen some towns transform completely from a white redneck town into a hispanic spanish-speaking town.

[SickBeast]

Immigration actually fuels the entire economy. They try to let in educated people with a lot of money. Try to imagine how much it costs to put one child through the school system in the US. Thousands of dollars.

I think immigration is good to a large extent; it's a no-brainer here in Canada because we have tons of unused land. In the US I could see it being more of an issue.

[BoFox]

Immigration actually fuels the entire economy.  They try to let in educated people with a lot of money.  Try to imagine how much it costs to put one child through the school system in the US.  Thousands of dollars.

I think immigration is good to a large extent; it's a no-brainer here in Canada because we have tons of unused land.  In the US I could see it being more of an issue.

Sure, there can still be as many immigrants as Obama wants, but they will just have to contribute a bit more if they want to move over here.

BTW, did you look into how immigration isn't even fueling Germany's economy, or Denmark's, or Belgium's, etc.. - all so well off?

Such countries with limited resources show us that such egalitarian models (free college education, etc.) should be followed, but America has a huge problem to deal with first.

Perhaps Rollo is right, that college education shouldn't be all free right away, but transitioned so that it's federally subsidized halfway to begin with, at least.

[RolloTheGreat]

You don't have Work For The Dole in the USA?

No. You just have more kids to get a raise.

There is no work or responsibility associated with it, just collect cash and free apartment.

[RolloTheGreat]

Perhaps Rollo is right, that college education shouldn't be all free right away, but transitioned so that it's federally subsidized halfway to begin with, at least.

Rollo has a cousin with three art degrees, and does not want to pay higher taxes to buy people art degrees.

Rollo has known people who use college as an excuse to not work and party everyday (I was one for a few years) and does not want to pay for that either.

Rollo has seen kids in HS that treat school like a tedious job they did not care about, and do things like yell things at the teacher. Kids paying big bucks to be there generally treat it like a privilege and understand the gravity of the situation.

[RolloTheGreat]

Got news SB. You, me, GStan, BoFox, Dave- all "unsuccessful" financially compared to CEOs.

And that is why Dan Price's 70K lowend wage is so important, to put some fairness back into the system!
[/quote]

$70K people are poor and unsuccessful compared to CEOs.

This would frighten me more than anything else, the resulting inflation would totally destroy my buying power and lower my standard of living. I'm not rich enough to pay double or triple for everything, and if they raised everyone to $70K it's pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't give proportionate raises to those of us who worked and invested in ourselves.

We'd have a society of people making $70-$120K, and everything would cost 2-3X as much.

I'm not too worried though, most businesses would be instantly bankrupted if they went to a $70K minimum wage.

[RolloTheGreat]

Reading comprehension FTL!

I said in my post that there aren't enough professional jobs and everyone shouldn't go to college.

What's wrong with my idea to put the unemployed to work? Do you disagree with me that they would have more dignity and self esteem as working people than they have on welfare?

If you think that, you're wrong.  The reality is that there are too many STEM graduates for the STEM jobs.  Same story with PhD graduates.

Exactly!  Rollo's son had better choose what he studies at college/uni very carefully indeed or he will end up just another unemployed person with a fancy (and expensive) paper certificate that employers don't care about because the jobs market is flooded with people that have them.

Rollo's son doesn't have to worry. If he does his part and earns his bachelor's in accounting like he plans, we won't let him starve or be outdoors.

If the economy fucked him through no fault of his own, I would consider buying a sub shop for him to run and earn a living at.

Like I've told him his whole life, "Keep your nose clean, do your part in school, and you CAN'T fail. You've got people.".

At very least I'd help pay his rent and groceries while he looked for work in his field.

(unless of course the world went bat shit crazy and implemented Dan Price's idea, in which case I'd still let him live with us until he can find his $70K job with $25K buying power)

[SteelCrysis]

$70K people are poor and unsuccessful compared to CEOs.

This would frighten me more than anything else, the resulting inflation would totally destroy my buying power and lower my standard of living. I'm not rich enough to pay double or triple for everything, and if they raised everyone to $70K it's pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't give proportionate raises to those of us who worked and invested in ourselves.

We'd have a society of people making $70-$120K, and everything would cost 2-3X as much.

I'm not too worried though, most businesses would be instantly bankrupted if they went to a $70K minimum wage.

I have news for you.  Raising wages does not magically cause the Mint to print more money.

[RolloTheGreat]

$70K people are poor and unsuccessful compared to CEOs.

This would frighten me more than anything else, the resulting inflation would totally destroy my buying power and lower my standard of living. I'm not rich enough to pay double or triple for everything, and if they raised everyone to $70K it's pretty much guaranteed they wouldn't give proportionate raises to those of us who worked and invested in ourselves.

We'd have a society of people making $70-$120K, and everything would cost 2-3X as much.

I'm not too worried though, most businesses would be instantly bankrupted if they went to a $70K minimum wage.

I have news for you.  Raising wages does not magically cause the Mint to print more money.

Inflation is not only tied to printing more money.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/defi...-inflation

Cost push inflation is inflation caused by an increase in prices of inputs like labour, raw material, etc.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage...spiral.asp

The wage-price sprial suggests that rising wages increase disposable income, thus raising the demand for goods and causing prices to rise. Rising prices cause demand for higher wages, which leads to higher production costs and further upward pressure on prices.

Good examples are Silicon Valley or MS economies, lots of income in area = higher prices.

[ocre]

I don't know what you mean "it didn't even work for Gravity", it is still happening there and he has picked up new customers in the process too.

His brother is forcing him to do it tough at the moment, but he will come through.  He certainly hasn't failed yet despite your desperately wanting him too.

This isn't communism, no matter how much you want to paint it that way.  At the end of the day there will be people at Gravity earning more than 70K, Dan included.  It just makes the basement much more livable.

it did not work.  Not at all. it is nothing like you and rollo think.  You guys got this all wrong.

Oh, let me count the ways.

1) Gravity did set the minimum salary to 70K, just not today.  Not this year, not even next year.......not even 2 yrs from now.
They plan (hope) to have the the minimum wage up to 70k by 2018 (dec 2017). Their wages will raise over time. 5k a yr.  
Employees making less than $70,000 annually will receive a $5,000-per-year raise or be paid a minimum of $50,000, whichever is greater
So, people making under 50k will get a raise to 50k. The average salary there was already 48,000 a year!  

2)It is not equal pay for everyone.  They still have more valuable people that already make over 70k.  One of the people that left was angry because they felt that their percentage on raise was not as good as the lower paid employees.  Everyone got raises.  The higher paid, higher skilled employees just didnt get double their income and that made a couple upset.  See, the newer people got double their income overnight.

3) Also, this company is in Seattle, which you should also be aware, passed a law to raise the city's minimum wage to $15 per hour. So....everyone from McDonalds to walmart door greeters are gonna be paid at least $15 is Seattle, its the law.  Companies have to raise the min. hourly pay significantly in Seattle and have 3yrs to implement this.  That means in 3 yrs anyone can make 35-45k working anywhere, any bum on the street can walk into any place and will be making such wages.  That is the law and companies have 3yrs to comply, they know that is coming and have to deal with it.  If you know lowest full time pay in the city will be 32-40k, you have to do something to try to keep the good employees and keep them happy.

Point 1, you are wrong, they did and they employed new employees at that rate as well as increased existing employees rates, which caused the dummy spit that led to two previously higher paid employees leaving.

Point 2, I never said it was equal pay for everyone, neither did Dan Price.  It is only a pay rise for formerly low paid employees.  There are others in the company who earn more than 70K.

Point 3, nice that Seattle is getting a minimum pay rate increase, however it comes nowhere close to 70K. 15*38*52 = 29,640 (15*weekly hours*weeks in a year), less than 30K per annum, not even half.

I am wrong on point 1....
Are you saying that Gravity currently has a 70k minimum wage in place?


That it is not 50k with the plan of a 5k increase each year?

[RolloTheGreat]

Any conversation of this is pretty much pointless.

Look at GStan's graph of wages from 1970-2012- always between 48-52% of GDP.

That's 42 years companies have not been doing what Dan Price did. It's not because no one has ever asked for higher wages, it's not because the companies never thought of paying people more.

On the contrary, at the low end companies have done everything they can to reduce labor costs via automation and outsourcing.

So GStan you can sit down in Tasmania thinking "This is great! Dan Price is the messiah of a new era of equality for the low end of the labor market" if you like.

The rest of the business world is looking at his example and saying "Holy shit, this guy can't afford his house anymore and doesn't have money for his legal fees, he's nuts".

Still only one way to get ahead GStan, learn a skill that pays well.

[RolloTheGreat]

There are millions world wide who have been through college, gotten skills in several disciplines and yet are still unemployed.

Getting a skill that pays well is no guarantee of anything nowadays (and it wasn't much of a guarantee in the past either - It is who you know, not what you know that matters, especially as you get higher and higher on the social scale).

Sure GStan, there are LOTS of doctors, lawyers, nurses, CPAs, electrical engineers out there with no degrees or skills- it's all who you know!

And of course:

http://www.businessinsider.com/college-v...tes-2013-6

The Massive Difference In Unemployment Between Those Who Do And Don't Have A College Degree

And the wage difference in general:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014...ads-widens

Study: Income Gap Between Young College and High School Grads Widens

You keep on thinking the magic Dan Price fairy is going to come and give you the big bucks. For me, I'll keep telling my son the most likely path to a decent living is learning a skill people will pay for, and keep counting on my bachelors degrees to make it more likely I'll be employed and doing OK.

"Could" be the employers of the world just want to help me all they can, but I think stacking the odds in your favor as much as possible is a good plan.

[RolloTheGreat]

There are no guarantees in life that anything you do will pay off. All a person can do is try to make it more likely they will succeed.

[ocre]

Yes, it does but it ramps up to 70K in stages for existing employees.  Read the article in the OP.

I think you need to read my post again. The one where you said I was wrong on point 1. Because, I explained to you how it worked. Then you told me I was wrong.

The article I linked to had the details. The min salary is not 70k today.....not even next year.......I am not repeating my post.

You were the one that was wrong. My point 1 was never wrong.

[SickBeast]

Guys the way to fix society is to make the rich and the huge corporations pay more tax. Many CEOs are paid as much as half of the entire companies that they work for. We have corporations now with more money than the entire GDP of some companies (i.e. Walmart brings in more money each year than the entire country of Ireland).

Setting the minimum wage to 70k is not the answer. We need to give more tax breaks to the poor and tighten up on the rich.

I have nothing against people being successful. I just think people need to pay their share. Paying $5k more in taxes is like a drop in the bucket to someone making $1 million+, but if you give that $5k to someone making $20k/year it's going to really help them survive, plus all that money will go right back into the economy rather than an offshore bank account.

[BoFox]

This is nothing to sneeze at.  The overall line for wages is almost perfectly linear in its downward slope.  It went from 53% of the GDP (when the middle class was at its peak) to less than 44% of the GDP (where the middle class is more like upper-lower class). 

Pilots used to make well over $100K/year on average.  Now, they barely scratch $80K/year, with drastically reduced benefits..  Company layoffs are at its highest in 4 years.  

The government is handing out more food stamps than ever before.  Basically what is happening is that the government is having to sustain the lower-than-median income population from succumbing into poverty, and in order to keep the economy alive and "attractive" for corporations in America (where the wages can still be used to pay for companies products). 

So, as the wages continue to decline, the government has to keep on providing more hand-outs, stimulus packages, etc.. just so that companies can suck them up from the population (actually increasingly from the government).  If America tips over into poverty as a whole, like Greece, then companies just ditch America and move onto Russia, China, etc.. as a more flourishing economy on the up and up now. 

20 years is about half of the above graph.  That is another 4-5% or so of wage decline, and another 8-9% of total discrepancy between the corporate profits and wages.  So, 20 years from now, wages will be below 40% of the GDP, and profits over 60% of the GDP.

All this would do is bankrupt the government, if the government doesn't want to let America degenerate into a piss-poor nation like Mexico.  The rich few  would just move into secluded locations like Beverly Hills, while the rest of Los Angeles rots with homeless children wandering the streets (big news nowadays already - the city isn't even able to provide homes for them).  

Researchers with the National Center on Family Homelessness found that nearly 2.5 million American children were homeless at some point in 2013.
...

Nationally, from 2012 to 2013, the number of children experiencing homelessness in the U.S. rose by 8 percent.

In California, which ranked 48th in child homelessness, the rise was 4 percent, increasing from 505,562 in 2012 to 526,708 in 2013.

http://www.dailynews.com/social-affairs/...california

[SickBeast]

How much are you allowed to earn tax free in the US? Here in Canada it's $10,000 AFAIK.

[RolloTheGreat]

Rollo's college arguments, just like all his others, blown out of the water!

GStan:

How much chance does a person have to get jobs I listed (Dr, nurse, engineer, lawyer, CPA) without a degree in that field?
None- because those jobs require a degree. There's a huge class of professional jobs where people can't even be considered if they have no degree in the field.

Then there is a huge class of professional jobs where a non industry specific degree is listed as a requirement to be considered. (e.g. pharma sales, many management positions)

These are two facts that cannot be denied.

My son hopes to get a BS-Accounting degree like his mom has, and wants to add to that with a CPA certification. Are there unemployed kids with accounting degrees/CPA certificates? Sure. Are there some working pouring coffee while they look for work in their field? Sure.

Do they have a chance to get work in their field that the people who don't have accounting degrees will never have? Yes.

Statistics for recent grads mean nothing to me. What means something to me is general statistics because I'm trying to stack his odds to earn a decent living:

http://www.indeed.com/salary/CPA.html

Average CPA salaries for job postings nationwide are 42% higher than average salaries for all job postings nationwide.

So whose advice is "good" Gstan?

Don't bother getting a degree kids. Some 9% unemployment for college grads, and half of recent college grads not working in their field. Better to just take your place at the bottom and pray the business owners change to a position that has never existed in the history of the world and put the needs of the unskilled labor first.

Your best chance of earning more money is getting a degree in something. You may not have a job in your field in one year, or five, but you'll always be able to apply for the jobs others can't, and have a chance. Even if you have to take an unskilled position outside your field while you look, even that could lead to other openings in your field within the company as they open up.

You've proved nothing other than it's tougher times for college grads to get work in their field. They still end up better off in the long run. You don't see many college grads working in a warehouse moving boxes their whole life.

[RolloTheGreat]

I've never said "don't bother getting a degree/qualification", what I've said is degrees/qualifications are commonplace, you can't rely on them to distinguish you from the next job applicant and some employers won't even accept your application if you don't have one.

That's what you say. The US government (who actually know) say 28.8% of people over 25 have a bachelors degree.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Having more education than 71.2% of your peers does not make you commonplace.

You're also ignoring the fact that it is the LAW that a person have a college diploma to do all the jobs I listed. You can't do things like say,"I done graduated high school, I think I'll go be a dentist as that pays well.".

 Therefore they are little better than a high school certificate nowadays and certainly won't be the thing an employer uses to decide whether or not you get an interview let alone a job.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014...level-jobs

Again, that's what you say.

Employers' increasing desire to hire college graduates could squeeze others out of the middle class.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...story.html

As examples, just 25 percent of people employed as insurance clerks have a BA, but twice that percentage of insurance-clerk job ads require one. Among executive secretaries and executive assistants, 19 percent of job-holders have degrees, but 65 percent of job postings mandate them.

Gosh, GStan's opinion or data mining company's data of requirements in actual job postings?

What to trust, what to trust?

Given that degrees/qualifications are commonplace, it is foolish to spend more than necessary on acquiring them.

You need to look up that "commonplace" word, I don't think you understand it.

US Government says 28% of people have bachelors.

You seem to like liberal blog Huffington Post, they agree with me:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/11...68780.html

For instance, college graduates ages 25 to 32 who were working full time now typically earn about $17,500 more annually than employed young adults with just a high school diploma ($45,500 vs. $28,000); those with a two-year degree or some college training earned $30,000.

I'd have to be brain damaged to tell my son, "Gosh son, Gstan says degrees are commonplace these days and not worth the cost. I'm going to spend the $100K I was going to blow on your degree on another cabin because I like going fishing and boating a lot. Have fun trying to pay your bills dude! Maybe you'll luck out and the guy you work for will pull a Dan Price and gift you a good salary!"

[RolloTheGreat]

Once again, I never said don't get a degree/qualification if your career needs one.  But you would be dumb to get a qualification from an expensive college/university if your local trade/community college also offers it.

Certainly in the case of your son wanting to become an accountant a trade school is more than sufficient, you can become a CPA in Australia studying through TAFE (Technical And Further Education) federally funded trade colleges.  Private college/university would be a waste of money.

Well, that's Australia.

In the USA, in the state I live in, a person has to attend a public or private college and get a bachelors in accounting:

http://nasba.org/exams/cpaexam/wisconsin/

Basically you need 150 hours of college course work. It's possible there are online colleges and the like that can supply this, but:

A. I'm in this to stack the odds in his favor getting jobs, remember? Trying to differentiate him from the rest. I'm not rich enough to send him to Ivy League, but I can afford a good state college.

B. Why would I deny him the experience of going to a University? Was a really big deal to me , an experience like none I've had since.

C. I think the university is a great place to meet your wife. I've preached two strategies to my son his whole life: A. You get education and then experience that make you a person a company wants to pay to stay, and knows other companies would love to have. B. If you marry a similar person, you each get the economic power of "If one of us gets fired, the worst that can happen is we're middle class and the family is safe."

I see helping my son attend a university as the most important thing I can do to help ensure the life he's always known is the life he will always know.

[SickBeast]

Rollo you seem obsessed with money and class status.

[RolloTheGreat]

Rollo you seem obsessed with money and class status.

I am obsessed with security for my family.

Don't want our lives to be "Mwa haw haw haw. The big boss told Rollo he can't sweep floors anymore! No more beans and Blatz for Rollo! Waaaaaahhhhh!" and then going home to tell my wife we have to move and try to borrow money from our parents.

Want to control my own destiny, make my reality what I want it to be.

Want my son to be able to do the same.

Has nothing to do with class status, I live in a decidedly middle class house because either my wife or I can afford it. If I was concerned with status I would have bought a home more in line with our combined income. Same on our fishing shack. Don't drive BMWs or Lexus.

My dad showed me the right way to live- don't be house poor, live a good life and buy nice middle of the road stuff, invest for your retirement.

[SickBeast]

For me personally I just decided to find a career that I was happy with and fulfilled by. I am paid very well for what I do and I have a great retirement waiting for me. My wife and I learned how to live on very little money while I was in university and we have carried that forward now that I have a good salary. My student loans will be paid off in a couple years, plus I will own my car outright at that point and both of my kids will be in school full time and out of full time daycare. So in two years we will be doing very well. Right now we just get by and pay off as much debt as we can.

I just think that happiness is the key. You need a job that you're happy with. I had to make a career change because I was in a job that was not right for me at all. For a lot of people university is a complete waste. Skilled trades tend to earn almost as much as university grads and they are not saddled with debt; they actually come out ahead in a lot of cases. I think for your son you should have him take a Myers Briggs test before he decides on a career. I know I wish I had done that before I took my undergrad.

[RolloTheGreat]

One of my CPA buddies said it best to me when we were bass fishing. "My uncle told me that no matter what you do, it's not going to be an exciting, fun thing to go to work. You might as well learn something you can make a good living at.".

SB, aren't you a teacher? That would be a difficult job for me, being in front of a classroom all day long. I do it in my profession when I do classroom training or speeches, but you have my respect. Those are long days for me having to put on a smile and be "on" all day. Much easier for me to log on to clients networks remotely to work with them supporting them or training them, can relax, take breaks as needed.

[BoFox]

For me personally I just decided to find a career that I was happy with and fulfilled by. I am paid very well for what I do and I have a great retirement waiting for me. My wife and I learned how to live on very little money while I was in university and we have carried that forward now that I have a good salary. My student loans will be paid off in a couple years, plus I will own my car outright at that point and both of my kids will be in school full time and out of full time daycare. So in two years we will be doing very well. Right now we just get by and pay off as much debt as we can.

I just think that happiness is the key. You need a job that you're happy with. I had to make a career change because I was in a job that was not right for me at all. For a lot of people university is a complete waste. Skilled trades tend to earn almost as much as university grads and they are not saddled with debt; they actually come out ahead in a lot of cases. I think for your son you should have him take a Myers Briggs test before he decides on a career. I know I wish I had done that before I took my undergrad.

You're lucky to have only a couple years left to go.  One of my professor friends just finished paying off the direct loans after more than 30 years.  It was the most exciting thing ever - the party was crazier than bachelor's party!  My other close friend has been teaching jewelry making at a state college for 20 years, but still has not yet paid off the loans.  He cannot even buy a house over $100K worth, due to bad credit associated with such debts, and his pay stinks.  He considers it a luxury to be drinking a $10 6-pack. 

Personally, I might not have had that much success business-wise, failing at my business start-up (I actually dropped out of college, and formed a corporation, with my own patent-pending invention back in 2003).  My belief was that if Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc.. could do it, then I could, but it's a much more cut-throat world these days, with many more corporate giants making it nearly impossible for young entrepreneurs to really take off.  The litigation costs, the start-up costs, etc.. all proved to be too much, and I didn't have a masters degree with several years of work experience under my belt along with an incredible credit line, plus most of the venture capitalists were actually vultures rather than the start-up angels that they posed as.  Went back to college, changed my major for the 5th time, and finally got to where I am at now..  While I appreciate the fact that we get to enjoy living in a sexy $595,000 house now, I'm actually geared more towards occupational instability rather than stability (in case a more meaningful opportunity comes along), and am also grateful that I had hard times as well.  If I got rich (especially during my 20's), I'd probably get carried too far away from my own family.  The cut-throat corporate world isn't easy, and isn't intended for those who really want to spend time with their 5 kids.  We plan on having 1 more.

Point is, to follow your own heart - to go for the truest purpose in life, whether it's a humble occupation or a lofty one (don't let others' negativity fool you with the illusion of "security", as a bribe for you to completely give up your own "calling" in the long run, if it's a truly honest belief in your own purpose, and especially if you're not even starving a single day, ever).  Until the day you really starve, the illusion of "security" is only that..  an illusion, and by never ever giving up the inner calling, the rewards could actually be more fulfilling and complete.  Life might seem rough at times, but overcoming these times makes the journey that much more special.  Money really does tempt..  but yet, it's still an illusion in the end. 

I do respect Apoppin's journey in life.  He's still doing something meaningful rather than just wasting away the tax dollars by watching TV all day long like many old farts do.  My step-grandfather managed his own life insurance business, and got quite wealthy, but then got a severe cancer on his cheek that completely disfigured his face as the doctors carved out everything but the jawbone.  After that, he just watched TV 16 hours a day for the rest of his 15 years until he was 74, contributing or giving back practically nothing to the society or even his own family.  He was just as miserable as Scrooge, but worse in some ways.  It was horrible misery as he forced himself to watch the same commercials 30+ times a day, tv show reruns over and over, while he yelled at my Grandma to bring him a cup of Sprite..  It seemed like the ultimate nightmare for one's own life. 

Anyway, college tuition shouldn't be so expensive.  Private universities make ridiculous profits compared to the salaries of their professors, who can barely pay off their old college loans - just look up the profit statements of most private universities across the nation (that actually disclose such) and see for yourself.  If financial stability is important for children, try to discourage them from loans of any kind - especially if there's a cheaper way of getting the same degree.

[BoFox]

How much are you allowed to earn tax free in the US?  Here in Canada it's $10,000 AFAIK.

I think it's about 10% to begin with for income wages even if under $10,000, although IRS allows for annual earnings (if self-employed, etc..) of up to $20,000 to be tax-free in some circumstances.

[BoFox]

Rollo you seem obsessed with money and class status.

Nah, he just really enjoys what he gets to do with the money.  Of course he doesn't want to go to work everyday (some days, he might wish he could just sleep in, lol) but getting to play around with the money makes him wonder how he could be happy without such. 


So, what do you guys think about the corporations "owning" the government to an exceedingly greater degree in the future than already today? 

The gov't is caught in a limbo..  trying to sustain the lower-than-median income half of the population from turning the States into something like Mexico, but yet at the same time, trying to keep the companies from completely ditching America for other countries with lower wage labor.....

Immigration might be great for Canada's economic model, but most of the States are already heavily populated along with plenty of immigrants - rather many of them uneducated (especially the Hispanic portion).  Perhaps the US should look to Germany's model - seeing how Germany succeeded so well with the unification of the ex-communist East Germany.  There is little population growth (educated immigrants) to fuel the economy, to buffer the health-care costs of the aging population that is no longer working, yet Germany shines even among the W. European nations. 


With the government further and further under the mercy of the corporations, providing billions of dollars to the lower income bracket, so that the poor workers can continue to work at such low wages while staying out of extreme poverty, are the corporations really starting to take over as the government eventually bankrupts itself?  Is it inevitable that the nation at large is going back to the select few rich and the mass low-income "peasantry" ratio of the middle ages?  Would there be a major crisis like a Coup-d-Etat with the current Capitalist model of America, to the same effect of the Communist model of Soviet Union in 1991 (it happened to the extreme right, so might as well happen to the extreme left)?

[SickBeast]

I don't know, BoFox, to be honest I really don't know how bad things are for the lower class in the USA right now. I will say that in Canada things are pretty good. We don't have the extreme poverty that you see in the USA, although things are really bad on a lot of our Native reservations. I don't know how the Aboriginals are doing in the US but they are quite poor here and they are very unhappy.

Like I said before, the top 1% need to pay their fair share. At the very least they need to find a way to shut down the offshore bank accounts and force them to actually pay tax. The corporations do this as well. Actually anyone can do it. Someone once told me that he invested money on the Island of Man and he profited from it tax free.

[RolloTheGreat]

The problem with the extreme poverty here is the people in it find it easier to collect free money than do the work the illegal immigrants very much desire. (because they can't collect free money)

We could solve the welfare problem and the illegal immigrant problem if we:

A. Shifted the risk/penalty from immigrants to employers
B. Shifted welfare benefits to be collected through business owners as subsidy for work


Of course, if the starving people of Mexico and Central America had to stay there and starve, it might de-stabilize the region which would have other issues.

[SickBeast]

Rollo is being very logical today. Are you off the sauce, Rollo?

[RolloTheGreat]

Rollo is being very logical today.  Are you off the sauce, Rollo?

I haven't been much of a drinker for years. Doesn't agree with me anymore, hangovers are too rough.