U.S. Middle Class nearly gone

[dmcowen674]

12-10-2015

Here's How Much the U.S. Middle Class Has Changed in 45 Years

They're now outnumbered by the richest and poorest


In the age of rising income inequality, the task of preserving America’s middle class has been taken on by politicians across the ideological spectrum. A new report from Pew Research Center shows just how much the economic fortunes of this group have changed since the 1970s. 

Pew defines a middle-class household as one having income that is two-thirds to double that of the overall median household income. A family of three, for instance, would need to have a minimum income of $41,869 to qualify as middle-income.

They're no longer the majority

Being a member of the middle-class has long been treated as an American badge of honor. However middle-income households have lost their majority status in the U.S, with the size of their counterparts on opposite ends of the income spectrum overtaking them in number.

The middle class holds 43 percent of U.S. aggregate income, the smallest share in Pew’s data back to 1970.

Almost half of aggregate earnings in the U.S. is now commanded by the wealthiest families, who are "are on the verge of holding more in total income than all other households combined

[dmcowen674]

Bottom line is if you are not rich you don't exist.

[RolloTheGreat]

Bottom line is if you are not rich you don't exist.

This is at it should be.










More seriously, I don't know how this could be as the median household income is in the 50s. Must just be a lot of families (not households) have lower income?

[dmcowen674]

Here is a Company openly stating that they only care about the rich:

12-10-2015

AT&T's Lurie: We're focused on high-end wireless customers

The U.S. mobile market is more competitive than ever, but AT&T isn't focused strictly on net subscriber adds, AT&T Mobility President and CEO Glenn Lurie said this morning.

"You have to look at mobility from a different set of segments," Lurie said at a Barclays investor conference, explaining that the carrier is placing a premium on enterprise users and high-end consumers.

"You can't go chase every single add," he said. "You've got to make some decisions on where you're going to put your focus.

And our focus today is on the high end."

"Then you've got more of a cost-conscious segment," Lurie continued. "You might want to call it a feature phone, you might want to call it prepaid. That's an interesting space. We still sell feature phones; we want to take care of them. But we're certainly not going to spend a lot of money chasing them."

[SickBeast]

I don't know what has happened to the middle class, it's pretty scary actually. Here in Canada the government has resorted to giving the middle class a tax break while hiking taxes on those who earn more than $200,000/year. They're going to have to do more of this if this is going to continue as well. I know my wife and I both earn a nice salary and we have a hard time getting by. I can only imagine what people less fortunate than us are going through.

[RolloTheGreat]

Here is a Company openly stating that they only care about the rich:

12-10-2015

AT&T's Lurie: We're focused on high-end wireless customers

The U.S. mobile market is more competitive than ever, but AT&T isn't focused strictly on net subscriber adds, AT&T Mobility President and CEO Glenn Lurie said this morning.

"You have to look at mobility from a different set of segments," Lurie said at a Barclays investor conference, explaining that the carrier is placing a premium on enterprise users and high-end consumers.

"You can't go chase every single add," he said. "You've got to make some decisions on where you're going to put your focus.

And our focus today is on the high end."

"Then you've got more of a cost-conscious segment," Lurie continued. "You might want to call it a feature phone, you might want to call it prepaid. That's an interesting space. We still sell feature phones; we want to take care of them. But we're certainly not going to spend a lot of money chasing them."

Why should they advertise to markets that are not profitable to them? There are other companies that serve that market so I don't know why ATT bothers at all.

[SickBeast]

You know what, I just watched the video and looked at their chart, and actually the middle class shrank by 11% but the upper class grew by 7%. The lower class only grew by 4%. So, some of the middle class people got richer, and some of them got poorer. And actually, if you look at it, more of them got richer compared to those that got poorer. So I will say that this destruction of the middle class has been overblown by the media.

[BoFox]

All the while, there is more segregation between the poor and the rich. Just like the blacks and the whites of the 1700's America... Except that it's more like a caste system like in India (albeit with just a bit of mobility). The middle-of-the-road shrinking by 11% is FAST!!! The line in the between segregating the 2 just becomes that much bigger, like real quick!

IMHO, a family with 3 kids with an income of less than $70K is poor to me, by living standards in the US. It just feels like lower class, as they cannot afford to travel anywhere far, or anything like that, hardly. They'd basically be going out on a limb just going to the Disney World for 3 days.

For example, in a big city like here in DC metro area, it seems like a family with 3 kids really needs $80K/year to live comfortably most days of the year without resorting to all kinds of trouble like driving PoS junker cars, etc.

[dmcowen674]

Try surviving on half of that. We are a one person with income family.

[RolloTheGreat]

All the while, there is more segregation between the poor and the rich.  Just like the blacks and the whites of the 1700's America...  Except that it's more like a caste system like in India (albeit with just a bit of mobility).  The middle-of-the-road shrinking by 11% is FAST!!!  The line in the between segregating the 2 just becomes that much bigger, like real quick!

IMHO, a family with 3 kids with an income of less than $70K is poor to me, by living standards in the US.  It just feels like lower class, as they cannot afford to travel anywhere far, or anything like that, hardly.  They'd basically be going out on a limb just going to the Disney World for 3 days.

For example, in a big city like here in DC metro area, it seems like a family with 3 kids really needs $80K/year to live comfortably most days of the year without resorting to all kinds of trouble like driving PoS junker cars, etc.

I don't know if you can judge how far people go for vacations as a reliable indicator of status. When you live in a vacation area, it's easier and you can maximize vacation time/minimize travel time and hassle vacationing close.

We do 4-5 vacation rentals a year, and go to our own cabin more weeks than not. When Rollo Jr was young add a couple weekends at Wisconsin Dells water parks like Kalahari to that.

We spent a week at Sanibel Island over Thanksgiving, but it was the first beach vacation we've done in seven years after calling it quits 7 years ago after doing that every year for a long time.

[BenSkywalker]

I don't know what has happened to the middle class, it's pretty scary actually. Here in Canada the government has resorted to giving the middle class a tax break while hiking taxes on those who earn more than $200,000/year. They're going to have to do more of this if this is going to continue as well.

How many people making $200,000/year employ thousands of people and ship their jobs over seas?

How many people making $200,000/year build cities in China to manufacture their goods?

I'm seriously asking this question-

How the fuck does anyone think taxing the rich helps anyone besides the government? Seriously?

Rich guy can't afford to buy a yacht because of his new tax bill- how the hell does that help you? You know who it does hurt? All those skilled and well paid tradesmen who make those fucking yachts. Those *were* a bunch of solid middle class jobs, but you know, fuck rich people.

Rich guy can't buy that new car down at the car dealership for his daughter's sweet 16 because of his new tax bill. The car that was sold to them by a middle class guy, is serviced by a middle class guy, was shipped by a middle class guy and depending on where it was built, was crafted by a middle class guy.

Straight up serious question, outside of dumping their money into stocks(which the wealthy normally do via options or shielded retirement accounts), what the hell can a rich person do with their money that *won't* help a middle or lower class person out? I've never been able to figure this out.

How is taking their money away helping us? I seriously can not figure it out. The only conclusion I've come up with is people who promote that as sound fiscal strategy are petulant nut job left wingers who could never make themselves rich or the truly vindictive who hate the poor and middle class so much they are trying to trap them in poverty.

IMHO, a family with 3 kids with an income of less than $70K is poor to me, by living standards in the US.

That is *insane*. To give you a point of reference, globally that puts you just under the 1%. One of the young guys I had working for me for a while recently had his first child. They are in their mid 20s, between the two of them they make a bit over $60K a year. Before they are 40 they will have their house paid off and be looking at a six figure retirement fund while having multiple big screen TVs, driving cars new-5 years old(getting a new one whenever the last is paid off) and all of the standards of life normal Americans are used to. That is if they never make any more money then they already are. They don't go out to eat much, they never go to the bar, they do go on vacations regularly(although normally within 1000 miles).

If you suck with money, $125K a year won't be shit. If you are really good with money, $25K would be plenty for a single person(obviously excluding living in Manhattan/SanFran et al).

[SickBeast]

You just don't get it Ben. I'm proud to live in a country where people are progressive.

[SteelCrysis]

How many people making $200,000/year employ thousands of people and ship their jobs over seas?

How many people making $200,000/year build cities in China to manufacture their goods?

I'm seriously asking this question-

How the fuck does anyone think taxing the rich helps anyone besides the government? Seriously?

It also helps the economy by raising funds without the need for further inflation. And people call Rollo a fantasist.

Rich guy can't afford to buy a yacht because of his new tax bill- how the hell does that help you? You know who it does hurt? All those skilled and well paid tradesmen who make those fucking yachts. Those *were* a bunch of solid middle class jobs, but you know, fuck rich people.

Rich guy can't buy that new car down at the car dealership for his daughter's sweet 16 because of his new tax bill. The car that was sold to them by a middle class guy, is serviced by a middle class guy, was shipped by a middle class guy and depending on where it was built, was crafted by a middle class guy.

None of this ever happens in real life, as the rich after taxes still have several tons of income+savings to swim in.

[RolloTheGreat]

I don't know what has happened to the middle class, it's pretty scary actually. Here in Canada the government has resorted to giving the middle class a tax break while hiking taxes on those who earn more than $200,000/year. They're going to have to do more of this if this is going to continue as well.

How many people making $200,000/year employ thousands of people and ship their jobs over seas?

How many people making $200,000/year build cities in China to manufacture their goods?

I'm seriously asking this question-

How the fuck does anyone think taxing the rich helps anyone besides the government? Seriously?

Rich guy can't afford to buy a yacht because of his new tax bill- how the hell does that help you? You know who it does hurt? All those skilled and well paid tradesmen who make those fucking yachts. Those *were* a bunch of solid middle class jobs, but you know, fuck rich people.

Rich guy can't buy that new car down at the car dealership for his daughter's sweet 16 because of his new tax bill. The car that was sold to them by a middle class guy, is serviced by a middle class guy, was shipped by a middle class guy and depending on where it was built, was crafted by a middle class guy.

Straight up serious question, outside of dumping their money into stocks(which the wealthy normally do via options or shielded retirement accounts), what the hell can a rich person do with their money that *won't* help a middle or lower class person out? I've never been able to figure this out.

How is taking their money away helping us? I seriously can not figure it out. The only conclusion I've come up with is people who promote that as sound fiscal strategy are petulant nut job left wingers who could never make themselves rich or the truly vindictive who hate the poor and middle class so much they are trying to trap them in poverty.

IMHO, a family with 3 kids with an income of less than $70K is poor to me, by living standards in the US.

That is *insane*. To give you a point of reference, globally that puts you just under the 1%. One of the young guys I had working for me for a while recently had his first child. They are in their mid 20s, between the two of them they make a bit over $60K a year. Before they are 40 they will have their house paid off and be looking at a six figure retirement fund while having multiple big screen TVs, driving cars new-5 years old(getting a new one whenever the last is paid off) and all of the standards of life normal Americans are used to. That is if they never make any more money then they already are. They don't go out to eat much, they never go to the bar, they do go on vacations regularly(although normally within 1000 miles).

If you suck with money, $125K a year won't be shit. If you are really good with money, $25K would be plenty for a single person(obviously excluding living in Manhattan/SanFran et al).

I pretty much agree with all of this.

A family with $70K income can live a decent life. That is a solid middle class income.

I get Bofox's point too though, once you've gone way past the $70K you can't believe people could live on that because in general people spend what they make and to go back to that would seem impossible.

[RolloTheGreat]

You just don't get it Ben. I'm proud to live in a country where people are progressive.

We're proud to live in a country where you can work to get to the lifestyle you want to have, without excessive taxation to support a lot of folks who didn't try as hard.

[SickBeast]

You just don't get it Ben. I'm proud to live in a country where people are progressive.

We're proud to live in a country where you can work to get to the lifestyle you want to have, without excessive taxation to support a lot of folks who didn't try as hard.

Basically you mean that you're a bunch of greedy bastards who could care less about people less fortunate than you. I say shame on the whole lot of you. People need food to eat a whole hell of a lot more than you need another ferrari or something stupid like that. To hell with all of you not job right wing hacks down there. I hope you all burn in hell.

[ocre]

To hell with all of you not job right wing hacks down there. I hope you all burn in hell.

Holly Smokes!!!!!!!

[ocre]

Sickbeast, you went from this:

You know what, I just watched the video and looked at their chart, and actually the middle class shrank by 11% but the upper class grew by 7%.  The lower class only grew by 4%.  So, some of the middle class people got richer, and some of them got poorer.  And actually, if you look at it, more of them got richer compared to those that got poorer.  So I will say that this destruction of the middle class has been overblown by the media.

to that???

WOW

Anyway, I think this post here is spot on. I mean, you were very observative and wasnt fooled by the propaganda as so many are.
But then........i dont know what happened?????

[SickBeast]

Sickbeast, you went from this:

You know what, I just watched the video and looked at their chart, and actually the middle class shrank by 11% but the upper class grew by 7%.  The lower class only grew by 4%.  So, some of the middle class people got richer, and some of them got poorer.  And actually, if you look at it, more of them got richer compared to those that got poorer.  So I will say that this destruction of the middle class has been overblown by the media.

to that???

WOW

Anyway, I think this post here is spot on.  I mean, you were very observative and wasnt fooled by the propaganda as so many are.
But then........i dont know what happened?????

Honestly Ben and Rollo make me sick with their sense of entitlement. They think they should have it all with their $200,000/year salaries. Everyone else should just bow down as their slaves. They don't realize that they can't have their $1 cup of coffee in the morning served to them without some poor person having to work for minimum wage, a fraction of their salary. Then they cry that they have to pay 2% more tax so that poor person can have health care, transit, and an affordable place to live. It just makes me sick that some people feel more entitled to more nice things and they could care less if other people starve. Ben was so worked up with his asinine entitlement that he started dropping f-bombs everywhere. You know what I think of that? F them!

[SteelCrysis]

Rollo is just a rich guy, and I don't mind him. But Ben is a fucking fantasist who thinks info hasn't been leaked from CIA headquarters in colossal proportions. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen would like to have a word with him.

Edit: Disregard Hanssen, he was with the FBI, not the CIA. But a quick check of Wikipedia revealed Ames had a drinking problem before he ever got into the CIA, but they let him in regardless. It just goes to show you (but sadly not Ben) that mistakes happen.

[SickBeast]

Rollo is just a rich guy, and I don't mind him. But Ben is a fucking fantasist who thinks info hasn't been leaked from CIA headquarters in colossal proportions. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen would like to have a word with him.

I think deep down somewhere Rollo is actually a nice person. He is just messed up somehow, unfortunately. I don't know if it's due to substance abuse or some type of personal issues. It's too bad because everyone around him has to pay the price for it.

[RolloTheGreat]

Rollo is just a rich guy, and I don't mind him. But Ben is a fucking fantasist who thinks info hasn't been leaked from CIA headquarters in colossal proportions. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen would like to have a word with him.

I think deep down somewhere Rollo is actually a nice person.  He is just messed up somehow, unfortunately.  I don't know if it's due to substance abuse or some type of personal issues.  It's too bad because everyone around him has to pay the price for it.

I think you spend a lot more time worrying about me than I do about you. You seem sort of fixated on me, why is that?

[SickBeast]

Rollo is just a rich guy, and I don't mind him. But Ben is a fucking fantasist who thinks info hasn't been leaked from CIA headquarters in colossal proportions. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen would like to have a word with him.

I think deep down somewhere Rollo is actually a nice person.  He is just messed up somehow, unfortunately.  I don't know if it's due to substance abuse or some type of personal issues.  It's too bad because everyone around him has to pay the price for it.

I think you spend a lot more time worrying about me than I do about you. You seem sort of fixated on me, why is that?

I'm just annoyed at your shenanigans on here. Every time I let it go you just drive me crazy again about something else. Even now you're still going at with gstanford over Yaris cars and nonsense. You just annoy me a lot, I can't help it, sorry.

[RolloTheGreat]

Rollo is just a rich guy, and I don't mind him. But Ben is a fucking fantasist who thinks info hasn't been leaked from CIA headquarters in colossal proportions. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen would like to have a word with him.

I think deep down somewhere Rollo is actually a nice person.  He is just messed up somehow, unfortunately.  I don't know if it's due to substance abuse or some type of personal issues.  It's too bad because everyone around him has to pay the price for it.

I think you spend a lot more time worrying about me than I do about you. You seem sort of fixated on me, why is that?

I'm just annoyed at your shenanigans on here.  Every time I let it go you just drive me crazy again about something else.  Even now you're still going at with gstanford over Yaris cars and nonsense.  You just annoy me a lot, I can't help it, sorry.

You should change your name to "Weird Beast" or "Rollo Stalker".

Gosh SickBeast, the things I say bother you? Oh noes!

Maybe you should try growing up and realizing not everyone is just like you.

[SickBeast]

Rollo is just a rich guy, and I don't mind him. But Ben is a fucking fantasist who thinks info hasn't been leaked from CIA headquarters in colossal proportions. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen would like to have a word with him.

I think deep down somewhere Rollo is actually a nice person.  He is just messed up somehow, unfortunately.  I don't know if it's due to substance abuse or some type of personal issues.  It's too bad because everyone around him has to pay the price for it.

I think you spend a lot more time worrying about me than I do about you. You seem sort of fixated on me, why is that?

I'm just annoyed at your shenanigans on here.  Every time I let it go you just drive me crazy again about something else.  Even now you're still going at with gstanford over Yaris cars and nonsense.  You just annoy me a lot, I can't help it, sorry.

You should change your name to "Weird Beast" or "Rollo Stalker".

Gosh SickBeast, the things I say bother you? Oh noes!

Maybe you should try growing up and realizing not everyone is just like you.

You're the only one I'm having issues with on here, Rollo. Perhaps the problem could be you. Maybe we should ask gstanford what he thinks.

[RolloTheGreat]

I think deep down somewhere Rollo is actually a nice person.  He is just messed up somehow, unfortunately.  I don't know if it's due to substance abuse or some type of personal issues.  It's too bad because everyone around him has to pay the price for it.

I think you spend a lot more time worrying about me than I do about you. You seem sort of fixated on me, why is that?

I'm just annoyed at your shenanigans on here.  Every time I let it go you just drive me crazy again about something else.  Even now you're still going at with gstanford over Yaris cars and nonsense.  You just annoy me a lot, I can't help it, sorry.

You should change your name to "Weird Beast" or "Rollo Stalker".

Gosh SickBeast, the things I say bother you? Oh noes!

Maybe you should try growing up and realizing not everyone is just like you.

You're the only one I'm having issues with on here, Rollo.  Perhaps the problem could be you.  Maybe we should ask gstanford what he thinks.

No for the ultimate consensus, you need to ask Apoppin......



Carry on obsessing about me.

[BoFox]

I don't know what has happened to the middle class, it's pretty scary actually. Here in Canada the government has resorted to giving the middle class a tax break while hiking taxes on those who earn more than $200,000/year. They're going to have to do more of this if this is going to continue as well.

How many people making $200,000/year employ thousands of people and ship their jobs over seas?

How many people making $200,000/year build cities in China to manufacture their goods?

I'm seriously asking this question-

How the fuck does anyone think taxing the rich helps anyone besides the government? Seriously?

Rich guy can't afford to buy a yacht because of his new tax bill- how the hell does that help you? You know who it does hurt? All those skilled and well paid tradesmen who make those fucking yachts. Those *were* a bunch of solid middle class jobs, but you know, fuck rich people.

Rich guy can't buy that new car down at the car dealership for his daughter's sweet 16 because of his new tax bill. The car that was sold to them by a middle class guy, is serviced by a middle class guy, was shipped by a middle class guy and depending on where it was built, was crafted by a middle class guy.

Straight up serious question, outside of dumping their money into stocks(which the wealthy normally do via options or shielded retirement accounts), what the hell can a rich person do with their money that *won't* help a middle or lower class person out? I've never been able to figure this out.

How is taking their money away helping us? I seriously can not figure it out. The only conclusion I've come up with is people who promote that as sound fiscal strategy are petulant nut job left wingers who could never make themselves rich or the truly vindictive who hate the poor and middle class so much they are trying to trap them in poverty.

IMHO, a family with 3 kids with an income of less than $70K is poor to me, by living standards in the US.

That is *insane*. To give you a point of reference, globally that puts you just under the 1%. One of the young guys I had working for me for a while recently had his first child. They are in their mid 20s, between the two of them they make a bit over $60K a year. Before they are 40 they will have their house paid off and be looking at a six figure retirement fund while having multiple big screen TVs, driving cars new-5 years old(getting a new one whenever the last is paid off) and all of the standards of life normal Americans are used to. That is if they never make any more money then they already are. They don't go out to eat much, they never go to the bar, they do go on vacations regularly(although normally within 1000 miles).

If you suck with money, $125K a year won't be shit. If you are really good with money, $25K would be plenty for a single person(obviously excluding living in Manhattan/SanFran et al).

The Gov't needs tax funds to subsidize factory workers (like with agriculture for decades now..) if we want less outsourcing and more workers here in America.  I think Rollo's idea is a pretty good one, as that would enforce more of the able-bodied adults to actually work rather than suck the government's tits (food stamps, welfare, etc.)...  

As of September, according to the Census Bureau, there were 115,831,000 households in the country. Thus, the 22,867,248 households on food stamps in October equaled 19.7 percent of the nation’s households.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-...ght-months
Most certainly, at least half of all of these households have a fully able-bodied adult capable of full-time work doing something beneficial like cleaning up pollution, installing solar panels, doing some kind of construction work on the roads, etc.  

During the Great Depression, everybody was put to work.  Now, the lower class is discouraged from working or else they lose food stamp benefits if they make enough money by working more than part-time.  Then all they do is watch TV, bum around on Facebook, fool around with dope.... no drug tests needed for food stamps or welfare (but needed if they want to work at Walmart or Target)... 

If a 2% increase in tax prevents the rich from buying his daughter a new car for her 16th birthday, then to hell with that not-quite-so-rich guy.  He'll just have to buy her a used car, while the gov't puts that money to better use by subsidizing employment to 10% of Americans (at least restoring jobs to laid-off blue collar workers who lost their jobs thanks to companies outsourcing jobs overseas).  At least that 2% will completely support America, rather than letting the rich guy spend a good deal of that 2% on imported stuff.

It would help to reduce the flooding Mexican immigration problem. The bottom wage here is so attractive to them, so they go after it like the gold rush.  At the same time, these laid-off American workers simply refuse to flip burgers at McDonalds, because it's too big of a blow to their ego - so they just settle for food stamps, welfare, and 8 hours of TV a day.  My father-in-law, mother-in-law, and COUNTLESS others are perfect examples of this (they want so badly to find a job that's similar to their original career work, but cannot even find anything except for flipping burgers because Target refuses to hire them for full time work due to them being in their 40's and 50's meaning more costly health care). 

The government could put our tax money to better use by encouraging companies to re-employ these mildly skilled Americans (even if it takes a bit more tax funds to subsidize the wages enough to the point where it's highly attractive for both the employers and the employees).  Unsubsidized work would mean even lower wages - especially for these Mexicans crossing the border, thus discouraging the immigration influx problem (while these Mexicans have less money to send back home to their relatives in Mexico and also less to pay for their relatives to move over to America).

[SteelCrysis]

Interesting, BoFox. What do all of you think about the concept of basic income?

[BoFox]

I pretty much agree with all of this.

A family with $70K income can live a decent life. That is a solid middle class income.

I get Bofox's point too though, once you've gone way past the $70K you can't believe people could live on that because in general people spend what they make and to go back to that would seem impossible.

Well, Ben and I are not on the same page where he says, "If you are really good with money, $25K would be plenty for a single person(obviously excluding living in Manhattan/SanFran et al)."

Ok....   PLENTY???  Maybe for the poorest parts of America living with a roommate, or if living with parents and not truly living as an independent single person.

$600-700/mo housing expenses for a decent studio/1 BR apartment in most parts of the USA
$400/mo for food (that's like $12 per day, and that's scraping the barrel with two $1.50 McDoubles for Lunch and Dinner plus drinks)...   scratch that, make it $600/mo for food if one wishes to eat something other than junk crap most days of the week
$300/mo for low-end transportation costs (unless "PLENTY" means driving a new car which would be about $400/mo plus gas and insurance, or well over $600/mo) ---   let's just say $400/mo here if a 5-year old car is good enough.
And then there's utility costs.  Clothing.  Hygiene.  Phone, internet, and maybe cable?  How much is plenty for a single person?  $300-400 for these things?

Forget about saving money for retirement.  Forget about a nice vacation to Las Vegas.  Just lower-middle class is the target here, maybe with a basic Sprint or T-mobile subscription for $50/mo.  It's not uncommon for a lower class American to pay $100/mo for a cell service, making that middle class guy jealous.

Money to buy a laptop/tablet or a PC?  Some movies and games?  A bit of leisure and recreation like going bowling, going to the theater or to a concert...   $100/mo can be kind of low when you think about it, so let's just say $200/mo unless you just want to go home and watch tv everyday..

This all adds up to $2250/mo ($25K/YEAR) and that is just GETTING BY so that you feel like you're living a middle class life, with no savings whatsoever, no health care premium, no investments, no exotic $2000 camping trip or cruise to Cancun/Grand Cayman, etc.. 

Add $5+K/year just for housing expenses in the bigger cities. 

What does "PLENTY" mean?  $10K or $20K overhead for savings, health care premium, being able to make investments, buy a new car, travel somewhere nice once a year?

[RolloTheGreat]

BoFox, you're just used to urban pricing and cost of living. A family with $70K annual income probably gets $55K take home because they're not in a very high tax bracket, and have 3 kids for deductions.

I picked a random town of 12,000 people in Wisconsin, and did a quick search, didn't even bother shopping:

http://www.firstweber.com/homes/1506956_...calculator

First house I looked at has 4 bedrooms, 3 full baths, 3 car garage, cul de sac lot backing up to woods, and costs $1000/month on a thirty year with a 10% down payment.

That leaves them $43K, and when you live on that you buy cars like this:

http://www.carsoup.com/details/used/2014...mwU9S_SkY0

Even at asking price, it's $223/mo for 60 with 20% down. Multiply that by two and add insurance/gas and that's another $1000 month. Those aren't POS cars, they're low miles used full size cars with lots of drivetrain warranty left.

Still have $31K a year left, which I think the family can live on pretty easily.

They're probably not flying to Disney World to stay a week at the Wilderness every year, but that's not everyone's idea of a good vacation either. It's probably my least favorite vacation, because when you're not from a high population density area going to Dizzy World's long lines and millions of people wandering around is sort of like what you imagine Hell will be like when you get there.

People in this bracket go camping for vacations, or do what I do less frequently.

I wouldn't consider a family living in that house, driving those cars, and going camping a week or two every year "poor". I'd consider them "middle class America".

They're probably not saving much for retirement, but frankly, most people don't.

[SickBeast]

I don't even need to save for retirement. If I told you guys about my pension you would be shocked. I have the best pension in all of North America. My salary is nothing spectacular but when you factor in my pension and benefits I have a pretty amazing job.

Rollo the cost of living sounds very low where you are. Actually from what I hear you can live quite nicely in the US in a lot of places with just a normal salary. That is good. All the poverty down there is very sad though.

Most people where I live who work middle class jobs and have kids really have a hard time making ends meet. A couple of friends of ours just had to move and downsize last week because they were heavily into debt and couldn't afford to pay their bills. I don't know the ins and outs of their finances but my rough estimate is that they earn around $150,000/year combined. So it's hard. I would say that their mortgage payments were probably $1200-1400/month. Life in big cities is very expensive. Actually I found New Orleans even more expensive than where I live.

[RolloTheGreat]

I don't even need to save for retirement.  If I told you guys about my pension you would be shocked.  I have the best pension in all of North America.  My salary is nothing spectacular but when you factor in my pension and benefits I have a pretty amazing job.

Rollo the cost of living sounds very low where you are.  Actually from what I hear you can live quite nicely in the US in a lot of places with just a normal salary.  That is good.  All the poverty down there is very sad though.

Most people where I live who work middle class jobs and have kids really have a hard time making ends meet.  A couple of friends of ours just had to move and downsize last week because they were heavily into debt and couldn't afford to pay their bills.  I don't know the ins and outs of their finances but my rough estimate is that they earn around $150,000/year combined.  So it's hard.  I would say that their mortgage payments were probably $1200-1400/month.  Life in big cities is very expensive.  Actually I found New Orleans even more expensive than where I live.

You know why they can't live on $150K a year?

Because your fucked up taxes make them share the money they earned with people who did not.

$150K household income puts you in the top 10% of US households and you can live VERY well on that here. (everywhere except the big cities, which is 99% of the country)

http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/income-rank/

Think about that 4 bedroom, 3 bath house I posted. If the guy that buys that has $150K income, here he'd keep $100K of it. If he's paying $1000/month mortgage, he can probably get by on the $88K a year he has left unless he is a coke fiend or gambling addict.

[RolloTheGreat]

Your friends are a GREAT example of why socialism is EVIL.

I remember in the socialist propaganda film "Sicko" Michael Moore asked the French couple how much of their $150k annual salary they get to keep. They happily say they're livin' large on $80k, and Moore tells them that is "plenty of money".

Well it certainly doesn't suck, but what is the difference in that and the $100K they would keep in the USA?

Well, $20K pays tuition and dorm for a kid in college.

$20K buys a recreational property so you don't have to recreate with the general public.

$20K buys your kid a decent car.

$20K invested every year means you retire well off.

$20K buys your housing and leaves the $80K for living costs.

Or, $20K buys health insurance for your prostitutes, criminal, slackers, dope dealers, and people that can't be bothered to go to a regular job.

How "progressive".

[SickBeast]

Rollo you might want to check some facts before you spew more vitrol:

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-ed...icans.aspx

U.S. federal income tax brackets range from 10% to 35% for individuals. On the Canadian side, the range is 15% to 29%. In the U.S., the lowest tax bracket bumps to 15% at $8,500 and to 25% at $34,501. The bottom Canadian bracket stays at 15% until $41,544. This is the bulk of the reason that lower-income Canadians are often better off than Americans in an identical tax situation. On the other hand, the IRS taxes the richest Americans at 35% whereas the top federal tax rate in Canada is 29%. Rich Americans, however, have access to many tax deductions that Canada's Alternative Minimum Tax does not allow.

Read more: Do Canadians Really Pay More Taxes Than Americans? http://www.investopedia.com/financial-ed...z3u7jPjt84
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

Really the big difference between the US and Canada is that your government blows all its money on the military whereas ours gives us free healthcare and takes better care of our most vulnerable people.

[dmcowen674]

$600-700/mo housing expenses for a decent studio/1 BR apartment in most parts of the USA
$400/mo for food (that's like $12 per day, and that's scraping the barrel with two $1.50 McDoubles for Lunch and Dinner plus drinks)...   scratch that, make it $600/mo for food if one wishes to eat something other than junk crap most days of the week
$300/mo for low-end transportation costs (unless "PLENTY" means driving a new car which would be about $400/mo plus gas and insurance, or well over $600/mo) ---   let's just say $400/mo here if a 5-year old car is good enough.
And then there's utility costs.  Clothing.  Hygiene.  Phone, internet, and maybe cable?  How much is plenty for a single person?  $300-400 for these things?

Forget about saving money for retirement.  Forget about a nice vacation to Las Vegas.  Just lower-middle class is the target here, maybe with a basic Sprint or T-mobile subscription for $50/mo.  It's not uncommon for a lower class American to pay $100/mo for a cell service, making that middle class guy jealous.

Money to buy a laptop/tablet or a PC?  Some movies and games?  A bit of leisure and recreation like going bowling, going to the theater or to a concert...   $100/mo can be kind of low when you think about it, so let's just say $200/mo unless you just want to go home and watch tv everyday..

This all adds up to $2250/mo ($25K/YEAR) and that is just GETTING BY so that you feel like you're living a middle class life, with no savings whatsoever, no health care premium, no investments, no exotic $2000 camping trip or cruise to Cancun/Grand Cayman, etc.. 

Add $5+K/year just for housing expenses in the bigger cities. 

What does "PLENTY" mean?  $10K or $20K overhead for savings, health care premium, being able to make investments, buy a new car, travel somewhere nice once a year?

You are low on a lot of your numbers.

Paying less than Chicago here but still $1600 a month just for rent so that is $19,000 just for a roof over our heads, more than half my salary for the year and that doesn't include food, car, insurance, cable etc.

There is no money for a vacation to a destination like a cruise or anything like that. We are going to see family and driving so glad that gas is low this year.

[RolloTheGreat]

Au contraire mon frere.

http://www.finweb.com/taxes/5-difference...z3u7lPtAmW

In Canada, tax revenue makes up 38.4 percent of the GDP, while in the United States, the tax revenue makes up 28.2 percent. This is largely due to the differences in the way each government spends money.

One of the biggest differences is the way each government funds health care.


American and Canadian citizens in lower income brackets are taxed at roughly the same rate, while Canadian taxpayers in higher tax brackets pay higher taxes than do their American counterparts.

You guys get shafted on higher sales and use taxes as well, some of which don't exist here.

And look at that- your government taxes 10% more of GDP, and in my example was a little over 10% difference in retained income.

Yeah, I need to study up to figure it costs a shit ton of money to give healthcare to everyone and the people earning money are the ones that end up paying it.

[RolloTheGreat]

$600-700/mo housing expenses for a decent studio/1 BR apartment in most parts of the USA
$400/mo for food (that's like $12 per day, and that's scraping the barrel with two $1.50 McDoubles for Lunch and Dinner plus drinks)...   scratch that, make it $600/mo for food if one wishes to eat something other than junk crap most days of the week
$300/mo for low-end transportation costs (unless "PLENTY" means driving a new car which would be about $400/mo plus gas and insurance, or well over $600/mo) ---   let's just say $400/mo here if a 5-year old car is good enough.
And then there's utility costs.  Clothing.  Hygiene.  Phone, internet, and maybe cable?  How much is plenty for a single person?  $300-400 for these things?

Forget about saving money for retirement.  Forget about a nice vacation to Las Vegas.  Just lower-middle class is the target here, maybe with a basic Sprint or T-mobile subscription for $50/mo.  It's not uncommon for a lower class American to pay $100/mo for a cell service, making that middle class guy jealous.

Money to buy a laptop/tablet or a PC?  Some movies and games?  A bit of leisure and recreation like going bowling, going to the theater or to a concert...   $100/mo can be kind of low when you think about it, so let's just say $200/mo unless you just want to go home and watch tv everyday..

This all adds up to $2250/mo ($25K/YEAR) and that is just GETTING BY so that you feel like you're living a middle class life, with no savings whatsoever, no health care premium, no investments, no exotic $2000 camping trip or cruise to Cancun/Grand Cayman, etc.. 

Add $5+K/year just for housing expenses in the bigger cities. 

What does "PLENTY" mean?  $10K or $20K overhead for savings, health care premium, being able to make investments, buy a new car, travel somewhere nice once a year?

You are low on a lot of your numbers.

Paying less than Chicago here but still $1600 a month just for rent so that is $19,000 just for a roof over our heads, more than half my salary for the year and that doesn't include food, car, insurance, cable etc.

There is no money for a vacation to a destination like a cruise or anything like that. We are going to see family and driving so glad that gas is low this year.

No, my numbers are accurate. I did the mortgage calculator on the house, and used a 5% interest rate on the car. I pay $30-$40mo on car insurance, anyone else should as well.

I also noted outside of cities. Chicago is an expensive place to live.

As such, no clue why you live there.

If you and your wife moved to a place like Plover, WI and could put together a $55k income (maybe you earn $40k and she earns $15K part time) you could live a MUCH better life.

My wife goes to Michigan Avenue to shop, and I work in Chicago on occasion. I've also been to Plover. Given the choice of living in Plover on a modest income or Chicago, wouldn't even be a choice for me. You have to be pretty well off to live the good life in Chicago, in Wisconsin you can live the good life and be pretty average.

[SickBeast]

Au contraire mon frere.

http://www.finweb.com/taxes/5-difference...z3u7lPtAmW

In Canada, tax revenue makes up 38.4 percent of the GDP, while in the United States, the tax revenue makes up 28.2 percent. This is largely due to the differences in the way each government spends money.

One of the biggest differences is the way each government funds health care.


American and Canadian citizens in lower income brackets are taxed at roughly the same rate, while Canadian taxpayers in higher tax brackets pay higher taxes than do their American counterparts.

You guys get shafted on higher sales and use taxes as well, some of which don't exist here.

And look at that- your government taxes 10% more of GDP, and in my example was a little over 10% difference in retained income.

Yeah, I need to study up to figure it costs a shit ton of money to give healthcare to everyone and the people earning money are the ones that end up paying it.

So we pay 10% more tax but you guys pay on average $4500/year on health insurance. There is no way that I pay $4500/year more in tax than you, so essentially we pay *less* tax overall.

[dmcowen674]

No, my numbers are accurate. I did the mortgage calculator on the house, and used a 5% interest rate on the car. I pay $30-$40mo on car insurance, anyone else should as well.

I also noted outside of cities. Chicago is an expensive place to live.

As such, no clue why you live there.

If you and your wife moved to a place like Plover, WI and could put together a $55k income (maybe you earn $40k and she earns $15K part time) you could live a MUCH better life.

My wife goes to Michigan Avenue to shop, and I work in Chicago on occasion. I've also been to Plover. Given the choice of living in Plover on a modest income or Chicago, wouldn't even be a choice for me. You have to be pretty well off to live the good life in Chicago, in Wisconsin you can live the good life and be pretty average.
[/quote]
I am not in Chicago anymore, in Indianapolis. The apartment complex requires a $300,000 insurance policy so that along with our car insurance is $200 a month and last month when my van had it's side window smashed and robbed found out the policy doesn't cover any of my contents in the apartment or vehicles. The insurance guy said we would have to itemize all contents we have and add yet another policy and it would be another $200 a month.

[dmcowen674]

So we pay 10% more tax but you guys pay on average $4500/year on health insurance. There is no way that I pay $4500/year more in tax than you, so essentially we pay *less* tax overall.

I get $550 a month out of my pay for health insurance and it doesn't cover hardly anything. I still have over a $100 a month paying in health bills not covered by insurance.