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PROPOSAL TO NVIDIA for a console for 4K Android gaming (upgradeable Pascal modules)
#1
Dear Nvidia (especially Jen-Hsun Huang),


Please go ahead and design and launch a console platform for Android gaming.

It could be an on-going console platform design, akin to Nintendo's DS, DS Lite, DSi, DSi XL, 3DS, the new 3DS (i.e., backwards-compatible platform design), or to the N64 with an expansion slot for added memory (i.e., upgradeable customizability to a degree).  

First, just create a basic Project Denver SoC (but octa-core instead of dual-core), clocked much higher with a decent heatsink.  Then include a Pascal module using NVlink - perhaps with 2 options, one with a 75W GPU, and the higher-end model with a 130W GPU with more HBM2 VRAM.  If all could share the same HBM2 (since 16GB or 32GB should be way more than plentiful for everything), integrate the SoC with the GPU if ready with the Pascal architecture (apparently delayed from Maxwell GM200 series).  

With tens of thousands of games designed for the Android platform as a whole, certainly, many devs would be interested in developing graphically intensive Android games for this console.  Ordinary developers could just simply optimize their usual games for 4K resolution, add support for AA, SSAA, TXAA, or whatever.  Ambient Occlusion, 3D support, PhysX effects, and so on could be added to a plethora of massively popular games that could be enjoyed on a big-screen.   


In the long run, serious console gamers and enthusiasts could simply upgrade the Pascal module to keep the console "alive-and-kicking" at the high-end.  Others could just buy an upgraded console version.  Backwards-compatibility would be under Nvidia's full control, along with Android updates, etc.   

It is understood that the first portable Nvidia SHIELD was a serious attempt towards appealing to enthusiast Android gamers, yet the 5" screen, limitations of Tegra4 graphics, etc. guaranteed such limited degree of success.  

The high-end Pascal technology is where Nvidia can truly dominate a market.  Why limit it to the Windows market, when a vastly bigger Android market is still untapped at large?  Seize the opportunity as every other company is at your mercy when it comes to technological dominance with quality 4K graphics.  Freedom from a contract with Sony or Microsoft by no longer making chips for their consoles allowed for creating own console (SHIELD), but why stop there with just a 8" tablet now - a high-end console means high-end GPU at least as good as that found in the PS4.  A decent 130W Pascal GPU should be 3-4x as fast as the PS4, so go ahead and do what Valve was trying to do with Steamboxes (albeit Valve's highly flawed overall approach making it all so complicated).  

Seizing the 4K revolution, especially with the bigger Android market, years before Microsoft or Sony could with their own consoles means that this is the perfect time to do it.  4K revolution becomes more of a revolution because of this.  Nvidia's 4K Android console for the big screen finds a hard time avoiding so much spotlight in stores next to the Wii U, XboxOne, and PS4 that pale in comparison with 720p or 900p graphics, mostly no backwards compatibility, limited "exclusive" library of games selling for an arm and a leg each.  The Wii U is a failure - Nintendo isn't even bothering with a real Zelda or Metroid game.  Halo 5 isn't even out.  Uncharted 4 neither.  

Let's see big time devs making games like GTA5, etc. try to get serious with the Android platform.  Let the entire world see how GTA5 does at 4K with TXAA at 60fps with a simple console, compared to the "big" consoles running it at 720/900p 30fps.  

And with the console upgradeability/platform evolution, Sony and Microsoft would NEVER be able to catch up with their PS5 and XboxTwo years later.  Sure, Microsoft could buy AMD and pour in billions of dollars of R&D into Radeon graphics, but Nvidia would have gained a few years lead with the 4K console gaming revolution.

What if Samsung bought AMD to create an Exynos console for the Android market that they know is bigger than the Windows market?  Best-case scenario: Apple buys AMD and shifts their focus away from x86 Windows to Apple OS platforms for high-end graphics, especially if Apple also wants a serious 4K console. Android is too big anyway, and such a separate market, so Apple joining in on the race would only draw even more attention to the only other runner in the race: Nvidia (with billions of Android fans). AMD just does not have the balls or the strength to do it themselves all on their own in the first place - but being valued for pennies, even Sony could buy AMD.

Nvidia, don't just stall in your own fears of Microsoft retaliating..   Nobody wants you to become as big as them and threaten them, so you have to either stay small, or emerge the victor.  Microsoft might buy AMD out of retaliation, but then still be stuck to the Windows/Xbox market while you go ahead and capitalize on the bigger, untapped Android market, earning much more to invest into your R&D, so Microsoft just might still never be able to beat you with their $10+B poured into Radeon graphics R&D which is already behind, and would take years to bear the fruits, ultimately.  DX12 already allows for much more flexibility and freedom, not just for Radeons but Geforces as well, so that they shine on the Windows platform.  So, now that is out of the way - what else could Microsoft really retaliate with, if Windows is to remain a "ubiquitous" X86 platform?  Suppose Valve massively succeeded with their Steamboxes, would Microsoft even have done anything to impede Steam on Windows? Nope - so, no worries! Tongue The only thing I could think of is that Google has secretly threatened you to not do this, and compete against their own plans to buy AMD and do the exact same thing with their own console??

Worth a try.  Give me a credit for some success, perhaps even hire me as a director?  Big Grin
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#2
And Nvidia, drop the SHIELD brand for the serious 4K console.

Call it something like GameRiva. Like the old nVidia Riva, but Nvidia GameRiva. This rocks, man.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#3
Dave, let me create a fake rumor about Nvidia GameRiva on ABT's main page!  I'd try to make up all specs, details of the companies decision, etc..  and act like it was a leak from an insider source.  

This would draw SOOOOO much attention to ABT!!

Big Grin  Just joking, but if you think it's a good idea, I'd go ahead and do it just for kicks and giggles.  (and I'd delete this post right away).  AND THEN ADMIT JUST A FEW DAYS LATER THAT IT WAS FABRICATED FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES, for August's Fools Day (rather than April).  

:pizza:

Nah, just kidding.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#4
you have to wonder what the plan is inside nvidia.
I think they are working their way into the android world slowly but this time they are focused on gaming.

A gaming console seems like a natural evolution. Perhaps they want to time it right.
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#5
Gstanford, you're making sense about 4K being so difficult to handle.  

I can understand what you mean by that.

Since many PS4 games are actually rendered at only 900p, it means that 4K would be 5.76x the resolution pixel amount of 1600x900.  So the GPU would need to be at least 5.76x as powerful.  

And if Nvidia does this, such threatened Sony would even "cheat" by encouraging devs to make games as graphically demanding as possible, and have them run at 720p, or at least make them run at 60fps at 720p.  Then that would mean exactly 9 times the resolution pixel amount over 720p, for 4K, in order to enjoy the same graphics setting at the same frame rate. 

But heck, who would want to keep on seeing their games run at such fugly blindingly blurry 720p resolution, especially those who just upgraded to a brand spanking new 4K UHDTV?!?!???????  Let alone 900p!!!!



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So, perhaps it would be a good idea for NV to just launch 2 versions of the console - one with a super low-power Pascal module that consumes only 50W or so, that has a bit over 2x the GPU power of PS4, to guarantee full-fledged 1080p processing with ALL popular current-gen console games on all HDTV's. AND another one with a powerful Pascal module that consumes perhaps 180W-200W, with at least 9x the GPU power of PS4, to guarantee the same current-gen consoles at 4K resolution with no loss in IQ or frame rate.

And the cheaper Pascal module version could be upgraded to the more powerful version, by swapping out the modules, if the customer would ever decide to do so. This would prove such upgradeability. It would be FUCKING AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just watch your games transform from full 1080p to full 4K right away!!!

PS4's GPU isn't even that powerful - I just did some more calculations:
800Mhz, 1152sp (1.84 TFLOPs)
HD 7850: 860MHz, 1024sp (1.76 TFLOPs)
HD 7870: 1000MHz, 1280 sp (2.56 TFLOPs)

Even with fast access to shared 8GB GDDR3 RAM, I'd still not rate PS4's GPU at any higher than 150 VoodooPower, and that is the absolute highest I would go. So, 9x the power of PS4 would be a bit more than 50% faster than the current GPU king, TitanX. 50% is more than within reach of such a super-massive full-node shrink of 16nm FINFET Pascal architecture, without even needing to consume as many watts - perhaps say, 60-70% the wattage or so, which would put it at less than 200W for sure - perhaps even less than 180W.

Nvidia knows vastly more about this than I do, but I just hope that Nvidia doesn't miss the critical launch window.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#6
Most PS3 games are 720p and they don't look blurry at all (at least not due to the screen resolution - any bluriness comes from the textures). Skyrim looks really good when near things (it is only distant detail and distant lod that causes any "blur").

The screen you are using doesn't matter. I regularly plug my PS3 into 22" LCD monitors we use on the access centre PC's - no difference to my 55" TV (except obviously for the screen size).
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#7
Man, let me tell you this from my heart... Playing "The Last of Us" on my PS3 (widely acclaimed to be the best looking PS3 game ever), was driving me NUTS!!!! It was torture on my eyes, on my 65" screen from about 8-9 feet away. I had to try to accept that my eyes were say, 20/200 vision or worse, without screaming in agony. It was pain and suffering. Impressive mesh detail on the buildings and street objects, artistic environment with colorful rendering of the skies/sunsets, etc.. but yet my eyes were about to fall out of my head and die!!!!!

Literal truth: I had to rub my eyes and ask myself like 100 times throughout the game, "Is there something wrong with my eyes?" (I guess I've must been spoiled with high-res PC gaming..)

The same for Uncharted 2. I also have Uncharted 3, but I'm refusing to play it, hoping that there will be a remastered version for the PS4. When I found that Sony announced the remastered version of "The Last of Us" for the PS4 RIGHT AFTER I BEAT IT ON MY PS3, I got so pissed that I decided to not even play my own Uncharted 3 disc that one of my kids only played a bit of (multiplayer only).
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#8
Video 
Sounds rather odd to me BoFox.



Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#9
If you can't tell the difference, gstanford, then by all means stick to 720p.

My eyes just have a hard time tolerating 720p on a 65" screen. 1080p is a world of a difference for me. Just look at the guy's hair in that video you posted above. You can hardly see any hair detail at all with the PS3 version, but with the PS4 version, the sharper resolution makes everything that much clearer - not just the hair, but the arms, etc.. everything. It's no longer as much of a blur-o-vision.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#10
(07-31-2015, 10:01 AM)BoFox Wrote: The same for Uncharted 2.  I also have Uncharted 3, but I'm refusing to play it, hoping that there will be a remastered version for the PS4

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2015/06/0...s-october/

Quote:You’ve asked for it and we listened. Today we finally get to announce that Uncharted: Drake’s Fortune, Uncharted 2: Among Thieves and Uncharted 3: Drake’s Deception are being released for the PS4 in the Uncharted: The Nathan Drake Collection, available 7th October 2015 (9th October in UK and Ireland)!



Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#11
(07-31-2015, 12:09 PM)BoFox Wrote: If you can't tell the difference, gstanford, then by all means stick to 720p.  

My eyes just have a hard time tolerating 720p on a 65" screen.  1080p is a world of a difference for me.  Just look at the guy's hair in that video you posted above.  You can hardly see any hair detail at all with the PS3 version, but with the PS4 version, the sharper resolution makes everything that much clearer - not just the hair, but the arms, etc..  everything.  It's no longer as much of a blur-o-vision.

It isn't the screen resolution, it is the texture detail/resolution. Remember PS3 only has 256mb of video ram.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#12
(07-31-2015, 12:09 PM)BoFox Wrote: If you can't tell the difference, gstanford, then by all means stick to 720p.  

My eyes just have a hard time tolerating 720p on a 65" screen.  1080p is a world of a difference for me.  Just look at the guy's hair in that video you posted above.  You can hardly see any hair detail at all with the PS3 version, but with the PS4 version, the sharper resolution makes everything that much clearer - not just the hair, but the arms, etc..  everything.  It's no longer as much of a blur-o-vision.

He will argue till his death on this.

He believes his 1080 big screen TN is better than a 1600p monitor. If it is a sony console or game, it has no flaws.

He thinks pixel density is a myth and console resolutions and IQ are unmatched.

You can post detailed explanations, sight with sorce and pictures showing him side by side comparisons of terrible quality in low pixel density environments.....it wont matter. He wont budge. He believes, truly believes that 1080 is perfect even for huge TVs......As long as its a sony console producing that image
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#13
I believe 1080p is "good enough" especially for the price point consoles inhabit. Well rendered 1080p can look very good indeed (DSR at 4K is rendered at 1080p). 1080p is the perfect compromise.

I don't believe pixel density is a myth. I do believe it can be detrimental if the physical screen size is too small as it causes things like the windows UI and productivity application UI's too render to small to be comfortably readable.

But carry on putting words into my mouth.... Means nothing to me or the vast majority of consumers purchasing screens on this planet.

None of my TV's are TN tech by the way.... You only find that crap in "gaming" g/free-sync monitors.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
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#14
I was just messing with ya!

But ya know, I am having a blast gaming at 100fps on on my crap 10bit 144hz panel. Its.........terrible!!!!
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#15
I'm glad you are enjoying your fast frame-rate, but I seriously doubt you are even using the 10 bit capability. That's strictly a high-end, wide gamut feature that only pro's use in certain applications.
Adam knew he should have bought a PC but Eve fell for the marketing hype.

Homeopathy is what happened when snake oil salesmen discovered that water is cheaper than snake oil.

The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin
Reply
#16
(08-02-2015, 09:51 PM)ocre Wrote: I was just messing with ya!

But ya know, I am having a blast gaming at 100fps on on my crap 10bit 144hz panel.  Its.........terrible!!!!

Rubbish!

Bow to your AMD APU overlord!

-Gstifford
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#17
(07-31-2015, 12:12 PM)gstanford Wrote:
(07-31-2015, 12:09 PM)BoFox Wrote: If you can't tell the difference, gstanford, then by all means stick to 720p.  

My eyes just have a hard time tolerating 720p on a 65" screen.  1080p is a world of a difference for me.  Just look at the guy's hair in that video you posted above.  You can hardly see any hair detail at all with the PS3 version, but with the PS4 version, the sharper resolution makes everything that much clearer - not just the hair, but the arms, etc..  everything.  It's no longer as much of a blur-o-vision.

It isn't the screen resolution, it is the texture detail/resolution.  Remember PS3 only has 256mb of video ram.

The "texture detail/resolution" is also limited to 720p, which is exacerbated on a 65"!  Sit in front of it from 8 feet away, and relish!!

1080p has 2.25x the pixels of 720p.  It's effectively 720p with 2.25x SSAA, without the downsampling.  You're probably the last guy on the planet still defending 720p.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#18
(07-31-2015, 09:36 AM)BoFox Wrote: So, perhaps it would be a good idea for NV to just launch 2 versions of the console - one with a super low-power Pascal module that consumes only 50W or so, that has a bit over 2x the GPU power of PS4, to guarantee full-fledged 1080p processing with ALL popular current-gen console games on all HDTV's.  AND another one with a powerful Pascal module that consumes perhaps 180W-200W, with at least 9x the GPU power of PS4, to guarantee the same current-gen consoles at 4K resolution with no loss in IQ or frame rate.  

And the cheaper Pascal module version could be upgraded to the more powerful version, by swapping out the modules, if the customer would ever decide to do so.  This would prove such upgradeability.  It would be FUCKING AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Just watch your games transform from full 1080p to full 4K right away!!!  

PS4's GPU isn't even that powerful - I just did some more calculations:
800Mhz, 1152sp (1.84 TFLOPs)
HD 7850:  860MHz, 1024sp (1.76 TFLOPs)
HD 7870:  1000MHz, 1280 sp  (2.56 TFLOPs)

Even with fast access to shared 8GB GDDR3 RAM, I'd still not rate PS4's GPU at any higher than 150 VoodooPower, and that is the absolute highest I would go.  So, 9x the power of PS4 would be a bit more than 50% faster than the current GPU king, TitanX.  50% is more than within reach of such a super-massive full-node shrink of 16nm FINFET Pascal architecture, without even needing to consume as many watts - perhaps say, 60-70% the wattage or so, which would put it at less than 200W for sure - perhaps even less than 180W. 


Now, I have a better idea..  make it 3 versions:

1)  Baseline console version with 50W Pascal GPU module with 2.25x the power of PS4's GPU, for guaranteed 1080p with all PS4/XBone gen game ports.  Availability in most stores.  Same price as PS4 (or even $50 less, giving XBone a run for its money).  Full-fledged Android experience, plus access to vast library of 30,000 Android games from Google Play store makes it a no-brainer.  Pascal GPU GP107 16nm FINFET

2)  More limited, 100W Pascal module with 4.5x the power of PS4's GPU, for guaranteed 1080p @ 60fps play.  Also bigger hard drive.  Availability in few stores, for $100 more than the baseline version.  Module card also available as an upgrade later on when trading in the baseline version (similar to EVGA's step-up program), purchased directly from NV for $100.  Pascal GPU GP106 16nm FINFET

3)  Not as limited as #2 option.  Available in many bigger stores as well, pushing 4K.  180-220W Pascal module with 9x the power of PS4's GPU, for guaranteed 4K gameplay with all PS4/XBone gen game ports.  Even bigger hard drive as well.  The Pascal module has 4x the HBM capacity as well.  "Elite" console costs $300 more than the baseline version at stores.  Powerful Pascal module card also available as an upgrade directly from Nvidia's step-up program, for $350. 

This powerful GPU designed for 4K gamplay would be like GM204 for the Maxwell generation, but GP104 for the Pascal generation. 


Also, Nvidia should buy LeapMotion and develop something as competition to M$'s Kinect 2.0 and Sony's Eyecam.


Hundreds of thousands of people spending upwards of $1000 on their massive 4K displays will be so happy to be able to enjoy actual 4K content at last, after suffering such staggering lack of 4K content for a couple years now.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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#19
NVIDIA Releases Exclusive 4K/60fps Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Trailer






Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain releases on September 1st for the PlayStation 4, PlayStation 3, Xbox One, Xbox 360, and PC


Read more: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-releases-exclusive-4k60fps-metal-gear-solid-phantom-pain-trailer/#ixzz3hyjlXuZ0



4K @ 60fps on the PC is basically for the top-end ("big" Maxwell, or even "big" Pascal as games become more demanding in the next couple years, or SLI-enthusiasts). 

4K @ 30fps (usual console frame rate) should definitely be do-able with a Pascal GP104. 

Why limit it to the Windows market when the vast untapped Android market is in the waiting?  Close to metal design, more control by Nvidia over the console architecture and ecosystem, upgradeable GPU modules (for 4K @ 60fps in the future with Volta GV104 or Einstein).  That way, NV will be selling many more GPUs on a consistent basis.  Perhaps compete against Sony and M$ by offering even lower licensing fees for developing games on their own consoles, and yet still make a nice profit...  

People are so familiar with Android now - just imagine how many would be happy to have a full Android gaming experience on their 4K TV's, let alone 1080p TV's with the same games running at least FULL 1080p resolution?  There just needs to be a killer console for Android.  Valve is trying to do it with Steamboxes, but no Windows = fail.  Not even an RT version of Windows??  IMHO, either one HAS to be used at the minimum, if not full-fledged Windows.  And Nvidia can even make it run an RT version of Windows using another drive partition and market it as a hybrid version for those who wish to use basic Windows tasks on their HDTV's.
Ok with science that the big bang theory requires that fundamental scientific laws do not exist for the first few minutes, but not ok for the creator to defy these laws...  Rolleyes
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